There is this myth about Prabhupada leaving the heavenly India for the hellish America. Which when told by Indians to their family and friends about their own coming to America, is told with pride in their being able to leave the hellish India, for the heavenly America!
America has been seen by Indians and most of the rest of the poorer countries in the world for a long time as a paradise they dream about moving to so they can escape the poverty, lawlessness, corrupt government, weather, and cruel and racist cultural norms of their home countries. India in the 20th century had all those problems and still does.
Prabhupada moved from that India to the richest country in the world. To a country where the rule of law was well enforced, and is very clean when compared to India. Where do you feel safer and healthier – walking the streets of an Indian city or an American city? Some of the large American cities may have small areas where there are bad neighborhoods, but the violence there and the threats there – to an average person who isn’t involved in illegal activity – is not too much. Whereas in India you don’t really feel very safe anywhere due to the poverty – which breeds lawlessness, corruption and criminality of police and government, and a feeling of despair amongst the mass of poor people which manifests as anger, violence, and criminality, especially towards those perceived as better off in life – and which can occur anywhere, anytime.
Women are especially at risk. Because of the sexual repression in Indian culture men grow up sexually frustrated when they are at the most libidinousness part of their lives. That frustration causes a psychological reaction. Women become unconsciously, or even consciously for some, despised. Women are strongly desired by boys after puberty, and they reach their peak sexual state of their lives at around 18. In a repressive sexual culture like India, where the sexual norms introduced by Victorian England never changed, the result is that most men develop a love/hate or rather lust/hate subconscious attitude towards women. Women are the strongest objects of desire during the most lustful times of their lives, yet they are forbidden fruit. Unlike most other countries, dating before marriage is a cultural taboo for most Indians. You can even get arrested or beaten if you hold hands or kiss in public. Men are denied having their strongest emotional and sexual longings fulfilled for years and years while they are still developing into adults. They experience strong emotional and mental anguish due to that repression. In turn they subconsciously develop hatred for what is causing them that pain. That is why women are treated so badly and with such disrespect by so many Indian men. In their youth Indian men develop subconscious hatred for women because women are causing them great pain by not being available to them. It’s like teasing a man dying of thirst by constantly drinking in front of him. You will grow to hate that person.
Then there is the pollution in India combined with the hot moist weather – allowing diseases to run rampant. In America there isn’t stool and open sewers in the streets with insects carrying malaria and other diseases. Prabhupada complained about the “low class” western cultures, but in comparison to India they seem much nicer. For example prostitution and forced labor, for children. Over 50% of children have no health care in India.
Countless children are taken as sex slaves in India.
A survey conducted by Indian Health Organization of a red light area of Mumbai shows:-
1. 20% of the one lakh prostitutes are children.
2. 25% of the child prostitutes had been abducted and sold.
3. 6% had been raped and sold.
4. 8% had been sold by their fathers after forcing them into incestuous relationships.
5. 2 lakh minor girls between ages 9yrs-20yrs were brought every year from Nepal to India and 20,000 of them are in Bombay brothels.
6. 15% to 18% are adolescents between 13 yrs and 18 yrs.
7. 15% of the women in prostitution have been sold by their husbands
8. Of 200m suffering from sexually transmitted diseases in the world 50m alone were in India.
9. 15% of them are devdasis.
Countless children are taken for forced labor in India.
Sonali, has come back home (Sandeshkali bloc, West Bengal) after two years. She is 12 years old and has spent the last two years as a domestic worker in Babughat, Kolkata. Cleaning a three floor house and cooking for a five member household. Her eyes brim with tears as she shows her hand that was burnt by her employer, who poured hot dal on it as there was a delay in cooking dinner one day. She fled with the help of a considerate neighbour”
The Child Labour Prevention Act which was amended on 10th of October 2006 banned children under 14 working as domestic servants and in dhabas, restaurants, hotels, and other hospitality sectors, making employing the above groups a punishable offence.
One year on, how far has the act been implemented by the national and state governments? The Central government had asked state governments to develop action plans to rescue and rehabilitate children who are working as child labourers. So far only three State governments have published these plans – Maharashtra, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu, and even today 74% of child domestic workers are under the age of 16.
Government of India estimates (Census 2001) that over 12 million children aged between 5 and 14 continue to work in various occupations including many hazardous occupations. This includes about 1,85,595 children who are estimated to be engaged in domestic work and roadside eateries. NGO estimates are very different, and place the numbers of children employed in these sectors (domestic work and roadside eateries) for the country as up to 20 million (with 1 million children estimated to be working in these sectors in Delhi alone.)
In response to a Rajya Sabha question it was stated that as per the information received from the state governments, 2,229 violations of the recent notification banning employment of children under 14 as domestic help and in the hospitality sector were detected. 38,818 inspections were carried out by some state governments from whom reports were received and 211 prosecutions have been filed. The above figure’s clearly shows that there is a lot to be done.
Save the Children’s work in the states of West Bengal, Orissa, Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra clearly shows that these children are routinely subjected to many different forms of abuse from unsafe working conditions and lack of food to being beaten, they are deliberately burnt or sexually abused.
Some of the key findings of our study on Child Domestic work have been:
99% of child domestic workers in Delhi and 84% in Kolkata are girls.
Most child domestic workers are young girls who come from poor families and are forced to work for up to 15 hours a day with no breaks and little or no pay.
68% of the children surveyed had faced physical abuse and 46.6% of the children had faced severe abuse that had led to injuries
32.2% have had their private parts touched by the abuser, 20% had been forced to have sexual intercourse
50% of children do not get any leave in a year, 37% never see their families
32% of families have no idea where their daughters are working, 27% admitted they know they were getting beaten and harassed.
78% of workers receive less than Rs. 500 per month.
In Delhi, 49% earn 1000- 1500 in a month. 16.4% get less than that.
42.7% do not know or have not been given their present address.
35% are brought to Delhi by relatives, 2% through agents and 22% through known agents.
“Childhood only happens once. For some it doesn’t happen at all.” said, Thomas Chandy, CEO, Save the Children, Bal Raksha Bharat. “To ensure that each child is guaranteed his/her childhood the government and the NGOs need to work towards implementing the CLPRA in spirit and form. Save the Children is working along with different Ministries at the national level and state governments in West Bengal, Orissa, Andhra Pradesh and Maharastra to ensure its implementation.”
Save the Children is calling for:
Better enforcement of the act ensuring that the children are rescued from banned occupations and the offenders are prosecuted.
All state governments asked to formulate state plans of action to enforce CLPRA and implementation of the same.
In line with UNCRC the age limit of the child be raised from 14 to 18. This would ensure that huge number of children aged between 14 and 18 working in hazardous occupations are rescued and rehabilitated.
We need to be recognise that girls who work as Child Domestic Workers are at a great risk of being subjected to abuse.
Undertake concerted campaigns to raise public awareness and strictly enforce penalties on employers.
Undertake study and close scrutiny of the placement agencies, especially those working in source and destination districts to combat child trafficking into forced child labour.
Effective plans from the government to rehabilitate former child workers and help them re-enter schools and benefit from India’s various poverty alleviation programmes, especially in the areas they come from (source areas).
I grew up in the west with an average income family – which would be seen as wealthy in India – in a large 2 story home on a quarter acre of land, in a place that was clean, crime free, with free well financed education, many clean free public swimming pools, abundant spotlessly clean well-kempt parks and recreation areas, where everyone, even the poor people, were better taken care of compared to the average person living in an average situation in India.
Prabhupada arrived in America and was put up by a well off family in Pennsylvania, hardly a “hellish situation”. Then he moved to New York City – which was seen as the richest city in the world – the capitol of wealth and glamor and entertainment for the entire world. He arrived right when the 1960’s counterculture was starting to change western culture. Because of that almost immediately he gathered a bunch of followers who became his willing slaves serving his every whim. He was waited on hand and foot and worshiped as a God for the rest of his life by the wealth and devotion of the products of “hellish America”.
Where was the “great sacrifice” Prabhupada made in coming to the west? He had some heart attacks, but he was at an advanced age with several health problems. If he had stayed in India he would have lived in poverty in the heat and rain of India for the rest of his life. Instead he moved to the west and ended up living the rest of his life with great wealth in very wealthy comfortable surroundings. He was always eating expensive and varied sumptuous foodstuffs prepared by his own chefs; he traveled first class to exotic locales around the world with servants tending to his every need; he was worshiped and served by willing slaves wherever he went.
A lot of the work of translating most of his books was done by his followers, or copied from other books, and his purports were mostly borrowed from previous acaryas. Not that he didn’t work hard, he did give many lectures and speak into a dictaphone most days for the purports for his books. But he didn’t spend his time holed up in a room typing away and doing all the work of getting his books published after he left India. After he started ISKCON the amount of work he put into his books was just lecturing into a dictaphone while using the commentaries of previous acaryas for a lot of what went into the purports.
From The Hare Krishna Movement : The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant edited by Edwin Bryant and Maria Ekstrand.
Chapter 8 – The Guru, Mayavadins, and Women: Tracing the Origins of Selected Polemical Statements in the Work of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami by Ekkehard Lorenz
From Hayagriva dasa’s book The Hare Krishna Explosion:
Swamiji finally tires of my consulting him about Bhagavad-gita verses. “Just copy the verses from some other translation,” he tells me, discarding the whole matter with a wave of his hand. “The verses aren’t important. There are so many translations, more or less accurate, and the Sanskrit is always there. It’s my purports that are important. Concentrate on the purports. There are so many nonsense purports like Radhakrishnan’s and Gandhi’s, and Nikhilananda’s. What is lacking are these Vaishnava purports in the preaching line of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. That is what is lacking in English. That is what is lacking in the world.”
“I can’t just copy others,” I say.
“There is no harm.”
“But that’s plagiarism.”
“How’s that? They are Krishna’s words. Krishna’s words are clear, like the sun. Just these rascal commentators have diverted the meaning by saying, ‘Not to Krishna.’ So my purports are saying, ‘To Krishna.’ That is the only difference.”
And from the same book:
[Prabhupada] drew from whatever sources were easily available to him at the time. For his English translation of the Bhagavad-Gita As It Is, he relied to a large extent on Dr. Radhakrishnan’s English Gita translation. His English translation of the Bhagavata Purana is based on a number of different sources. In his translation of the third book of the Bhagavata Purana, for example, one finds a large number of stanzas that agree verbatim with C.L. Goswami’s and M.A. Sastri’s earlier English translation of the text. While Bhaktivedanta Swami continued to use their work when he translated the fourth book, he no longer copied any of their translations verbatim. From the twenty-eighth chapter of book four to the thirteenth chapter of book ten, his work is clearly based on the Gaudiya Math Bengali edition of the Bhagavata Purana. Many of Bhaktivedanta Swami’s translations in this part of his work are not rendered directly from the original Sanskrit, but from the Bengali translation of the Gaudiya Math edition. His books, however, nowhere state the actual sources on which his work was based.
Many explanations in Bhaktivedanta Swami’s commentary on the Bhagavata Purana can be traced directly to the traditional Gaudiya Sanskrit commentaries that he used in his work. It appears that in order to formulate his own commentary on a given stanza of the Bhagavata Purana, Bhaktivedanta Swami would first glance at the notes of two or three of the earlier commentators, paraphrase fragments of their glosses, and then add his own elaborations.
The story taught in ISKCON of Prabhupada’s superhuman output of books, and his sacrificing everything for us low class westerners by leaving paradise and having to struggle in a hellish land – is a myth. He went from almost poverty and obscurity – from living in a little room in a hot dusty Indian town – to living in palatial estates, having great wealth and fame, and being worshiped by thousands of willing slaves the world over who would jump to serve his every desire – at his beck and call – day and night.
Vrajabhumi,
Prabhupada said “He had some heart attacks.” Was this ever verified by a cardiologist?
Good question, I don’t know. It is common for people to mistakingly diagnose themselves with a heart attack.
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/chest_pain/causes.htm
I don’t know if Prabhupada was checked out by a qualified physician or not. In 1977 he was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, which can cause cardiovascular problems, so he probably was at risk for a heart attack at an earlier date.
arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir
vaisnave jati-buddhir visnor va vaisnavanam
kali-mala-mathane pada-tirthe ‘mbu-buddhih
sri-visnor namni mantre sakala-kalusa-he
sabda-samanya-buddhir visnau sarvesvarese
tad-itara-sama-dhir yasya va naraki sah
“One who thinks the Deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone, who thinks of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession as an ordinary man, who thinks the Vaisnava in the Acyuta-gotra to belong to a certain caste or creed or who thinks of caranamrta or Ganges water as ordinary water is taken to be a resident of hell.” (Padma Purana)
Makhanchor, if the “spiritual master in the disciplic succession,” as you describe Prabhupada, had not said and done such abominable things, people might not be so inclined to think of him “as an ordinary man.”
I just quoted a verse.
I made no interpretations at all.
I leave it to anyone left reading this site whether it is applicable.
Makhanchor
Your translation is way off. This one may not be perfect, but it is much closer then what you wrote:
arcye vishnau shila-dhir gurushu nara-matir vaishnave jati-buddhir
vishnor va vaishnavanam kali-mala-mathane pada-tirthe ’mbu-buddhih
shri-vishnor namni mantre sakala-kalusha-he shabde-samanya buddhir
vishnau sarveshvareshe tad-itara-sama-dhir yasya va naraki sah
arcye—the worshipable; vishnau—Deity of Lord Vishnu; shila-dhih—thinking Him to be stone; gurushu—the gurus; nara-mati—thinking them to be men; vaishnave—a Vaishnava; jati-buddhih—viewing based upon caste; vishnoh—of Lord Vishnu; va—or; vaishnavanam—of the Vaishnava devotees; kali—of the worst kind; mala—dire; mathane—churned up; pada-tirthe—feet or tirthas; ambu-buddhih—the thought that it is water; shri-vishnoh—of Shri Vishnu; namni—the Names; mantre—the mantras; sakala-kalusha-he—which destroys all kinds of impurities; shabde—sound vibration; samanya-buddhih—the thought that they are equal; vishnau—Lord Vishnu; sarva-ishvara-ishe—the controller of all other controllers; tat-itara-sama-dhih—the thought that anything else can be equal to Him; yasya—of whom; va—or; naraki—a resident of hell; sah—he is.
To think the worshipable Vishnu to be stone; gurus to be men; viewing Vaishnavas by caste; thinking the water which touches the feet of the Vaishnava or Vishnu which has the potency to destroy all evils of the age of Kali, to be water; to consider the names or mantras of Vishnu which are able to destroy all impurities, to be sound; to think the God of all Gods, Vishnu, to be equal with anything else; that person resides in hell.
The point is not to see the above things as mundane. That doesn’t mean that we have to accept the water that washes the feet of a Vaishnava or Vishnu to be healthy to drink if that water is contaminated to begin with. If a Vaishnava walks in a holy tirtha which is highly polluted, like some rivers in India, that river water may not be mundane, but you can get sick if you drink it. A guru may not be mundane, God is the guru who works through devotees, but that doesn’t mean we have to accept everything a guru does or does not do, says or does not say, as perfect and 100% acceptable and true.
If you think otherwise then I challenge you to start preaching that black people would be better off being slaves, or that people should be killed if they don’t become devotees, or that girls should not receive higher education and should only seek to be housewives – otherwise they will become prostitutes and destroy society.
So you believe that there is something in Srila Prabhupada that is beyond the mundane?
Or that there is anything about Vrndavana that is beyond the mundane?
From what you write I couldn’t tell.
Vrajabhumi seems to have given Makhanchor a challenge he can’t accept.
Nope.
I don’t believe in guru infallibility.
That is why there is guru, sastra and sadhu, and not just guru, guru and guru.
I’ve answered your query now lets see if any of you answer mine.
Yes, the guru, sastra and sadhu is the ultimate check and balance system for ascertaining truth. For anything to be true, it has to be:
a) in harmony with texts written thousands of years ago,
b) in harmony with the shared beliefs of monastic traditions
c) in harmony with the teachings by an authorized spiritual master
Who needs logic and empirical evidence? This is the most scientific approach. It is even more scientific than science.
Makhancor you wrote
Well, you clearly are not willing to read what I have written on this blog before making your critique. I told you the last time you asked these types of questions – when you asked me if I am an atheist etc? I told you then and I tell you again, I am not going to repeat long complicated answers to you just because you are not willing to read what I have already written. This is the last time I am telling you, so don’t waste your time with your repetition, you won’t get an answer. If you want to read and then critique what I have written I will answer, but so far you keep insisting that I answer questions I have already answered.
You have no ability to step outside of your skin and look at yourself from the point of view of someone who doesn’t know you and is knowing you only through your words on this blog.
You may think it is a given that someone will understand that you believe in Krsna or that you see Srila Prabhupada or Vrndavana as more than mundane. But I don’t assume anything unless you state it. Whatever I would assume could just as easily be wrong as it could be right. And since you are unwilling to answer very simple questions you still remain hidden like a coward.
I never asked if you were an atheist. That was someone else. I asked you where you believe the truth resides. You have not answered. Just like you also have not answered my question above.
I may not get an answer but that doesn’t mean I will neglect to point out that you are like a sniper, and that it is the approach of a coward to take pot shots from the shadows.
I don’t respect it and it makes me wonder what your real agenda is.
Makhanchor das is doing an exemplary job of emulating Prabhupada the perfect guru. When dealing with critics, Prabhupada never stepped out of his skin to look at the rascals, asses, demons, atheists, etc. from their point of view. He favoured the chopping technique of his Guru Maharaja:
“No compromise—Ramakrishna, avataras, yogis, everyone was enemy to Guru Maharaja—he never compromised. Some God-brothers complained that this preaching was chopping technique and it would not be successful. But we have seen that those who criticized, they fell down. For my part I have taken up the policy of my Guru Maharaja—no compromise. All these so called scholars, scientists, philosophers who do not accept Krsna are nothing more than rascals, fools lowest of mankind etc.. ” – Letter to Karandhara: 27 July, 1973
So followers of Prabhupada should continue chopping against those who dare to criticize their perfect guru. If these critics raise up arguments, simply ignore them and keep chopping. If these critics have stated their positions on issues, keep on pressing the issue while disregarding their so-called positions. No compromise!
That description fits Vrajabhumi more than me.
She’s the one who is requiring things to be on her terms.
Fact is, we don’t even know if she is a devotee.
Yes, only devotees are allowed to raise questions about Krishna Consciousness. The rest of the world who do not accept Krsna are nothing more than rascals, fools lowest of mankind. These rascals and fools may ask: “What does the person’s status have to do with the merit of his/her argument?” But as followers of Prabhupada the perfect guru, we must ignore the argument and focus on chopping the person. That is real science.
To be honest I am somewhat sympathetic to the issues that are being brought up here, but am disappointed at the people. You only put words in people’s mouths and she is not interested in answering even one or 2 simple questions.
Using that approach you will surely never change anything, but maybe you will placate your anger.
Makhancor you said earlier
So yes you did question if am an atheist, and you question what I have to contribute on this blog besides pointing out what I think is wrong in Prabhupada’s words. Since you keep on harping on this, and since I have told you repeatedly that your answers are already written down, and due to your desire to accuse me of not answering your questions – which if you would take the time to read what I have written like I told you to do – you wouldn’t be asking me the questions you keep asking and accusing me of dodging them – therefore, Makhancor, I can only conclude that you are either:
a) Drunk
b) Lazy
c) Stupid
d) Obnoxious
e) All of the above
Should I start a poll to find out everyone’s opinions?
Makhanchor, #9:
In ISKCON it is guru, guru and guru.
Prabhupada often did not translate the verses of “sastra” in a text-critical manner, and the original verses, however accurate they may or may not be (see Ekkehard Lorenz’s essays referenced in the article above), are buried in his own pervasive commentary about the evils of women and black people and in his dangerous “teachings” about child-rearing. Thus there are no checks and balances in what ISKCON considers to be “sastra” for what Prabhupada said – because he wrote the sastra!
And similarly, who are the sadhus? Prabhupada forbade his followers to interact with his Godbrothers. So the only sadhus within ISKCON are the blind followers of Prabhupada who accept his every word as absolute truth. No checks and balances there.
So even though the system of guru, sastra and sadhu may be faulty to begin with, as Swami points out in Comment #10, ISKCON doesn’t even have that much. There are no checks and balances.
Swami Bhaktivedanta did not study Sanksrit and the literature of the Six Goswamis from a Vaisnava scholar, as the tradition deemed appropriate for anyone who lectures and comments on the bhakti teachings. He is therefore, not a scholar in a traditional sense. His profession was a business man.
Regarding checks and balances, I think this is a deeply wise way to resolution. It is a very sensitive moment we are experiencing in this movement. Therefore I like to point out very carefully here that I sense hostility from Radhapada towards Bhaktivedanta Swami. Radapadha’s is just a sample of a section which tends to bring this debate to a too personal level, in my opinion. The problem is, if this just strictly personal prevails in the debate, there is no fair scope for the other reality of the Bhaktivedanta Swami’s phenomenon which is the section who did feel genuinely benefitted by his campaign. If the hanging mood prevails no matter what, where really is the balance then? What is accomplished?
In this, I believe it is imperative that we remain able to curb our passion.
Vrajabhumi,
Your saying I question whether or not you are an atheist is just as dishonest as the rest of your presentation.
Namely you take one time that Srila Prabhupada misspoke on rape and use that as an excuse to characterize him as if this was a regular part of his teachings that “women like to be raped”. This accusation has been repeated over and over again by people on this forum, and it is false.
This is patently dishonest.
There may be people who would agree with you that Krsna consciousness does not require that one adopt traditional Vedic attitudes about the position of women in society, but you will surely lose their sympathy when you step over the line from making that point to falsely characterizing Srila Prabhupada.
Although his purports are not my reading material of choice when it comes to devotional literature, still, from a vaishnava point of view, it is not required to study shastra under the guidance of scholars. If one understands the language of the text, that combined with their own personal bhajan and mercy from guru is enough to give them suffiecient anubhuti.
There are so many “scholars” of the goswami literatures in India who may or may not be adept in bhajan, but they can speak beautifully on the subject. Nothing wrong in that either, but an intellectual understanding does not equate bhakti, although it can be a great aid to bhakti.
All approaches have their place and the people who are inclined to one or the other fortunately have no dirth of people who can fulfill their desires for whatever type of sanga they are looking for.
By the way your characterization of India above is just as lopsided as your presentation of Srila Prabhupada.
It begs the question of whether you have the capacity for spiritual vision at all, when you present a characterization which is so devoid of it.
Makhanchor, I think your statement in Comment #9, that you “do not believe in guru infallibility” should really be acknowledged in this discussion. We are really all essentially on the same wavelength here and I am sorry to see you and Vrajabhumi at odds over secondary points. And while I have no desire to get in the middle of that, and while I do want to acknowledge your more positive and balanced comments, I also feel compelled to point out, for the record, that Prabhupada did not “misspeak” about rape just “one time.” He made many vile statements about women liking to be raped, in which it is clear that he meant the word in it’s present definition. I think you are in denial here.
Govindanandini, I always appreciate your wise and balanced comments. But in Comment #20 you state, “Radapadha’s is just a sample of a section which tends to bring this debate to a too personal level, in my opinion.”
I respectfully disagree. How can this debate possibly NOT be personal? These are fundamentally personal issues which have dramatically affected people’s lives in deeply personal ways – not the least of whom are the hundreds of children who were violently abused and molested in Prabhupada’s “personal” movement according to his “personal” teachings and his “personal” gurukula order.
My feeling is that there is no way to analyze these issues in a detached and clinical way, as so many people have been abused and exploited as a direct result of Prabhupada’s teachings.
Servant of Krishna, 18,
I disagree with your characterization of Srila Prabhupada’s books. The themes you talk about don’t “bury” anything. The original verses in sanskrit are there as are the word for word translations. They are authentic and it was a monumental task to translate them, despite Vrajabhumi’s trying to make little of it.
“Moon dot,” while there may indeed be gurus with wisdom to share, such as Bhaktivinoda Thakura, this “mercy from guru” as a prerequisite for spiritual life concept that you espouse in Comment #22 directly lends itself to the type of gross exploitation and mindless fear tactics that we see are the basis of ISKCON’s control over its members.
The living being can connect directly with the Lord within the heart WITHOUT any go-between.
govindananandini says,
“Radapadha’s is just a sample of a section which tends to bring this debate to a too personal level.
Isn’t there a claim within ISKCON that you are personalists?
I have a wealth of experience living in various ISKCON communities worldwide for over 20 years and have read all of the of literature written by Swami Bhaktivedanta several times over. I hope that I can provide insight here from the resources I have mentioned. My desire is that you all live happier spiritual lives.
Radhe Radhe
Makhanchor #26, your sentence, “The themes you talk about don’t “bury” anything” does not make sense to me linguistically, and so I can’t comment on it because I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.
But regarding the verses, since Prabhupada’s translations were often NOT text-critical, many will disagree that they are “authentic.” Also, since Prabhupada plagiarized much of what he “wrote,” the task was actually not as “monumental” as we may think.
Servant of Krishna, 24,
I have read all of Srila Prabhupada’s books many times and to me it a totally false characterization to say that he taught that “women like to be raped”. It is just false.
I find myself at a loss to try to understand the feeling of betrayal that would accompany being raised as an innocent child in ISKCON and having been sexually and verbally abused. I know it may not matter to those here who had that experience, but I am very sorry that that happened. There is no excuse for it. I am not an apologist for ISKCON. I have been on the outside for 20 something years.
Makhanchor, with a straw between my teeth, if Prabhupada was not trying to teach that women like to be raped, he shouldn’t have said it so damned many times throughout his purports, classes and conversations. He shouldn’t have said it AT ALL. But he DID say it. Lots of times. HE EVEN MADE THIS STATEMENT IN THE SACRED SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM!!! How completely offensive and disgusting is THAT??? Therefore, that WAS his teaching. People need to stop rationalizing and justifying and stop making excuses ONCE AND FOR ALL.
Swami Bhaktivedanta claimed to his followers that his purports were not his doing but Krishna’s, and that they were his ‘ecstacies’. His followers believe that wholeheartedly.
His ‘ecstacies’ included that women enjoy an aggressive and illegal rape, blacks are a low race, that Tapan Misra (Raghunatha Bhatta’s father) and Chandrasekhara who were both associates of Mahaprabhu are kanishta adhikara or devotees of the lowest level, and he compares his writing books to like that of Rupa Goswami.
Radhapada, what’s that about Tapan Misra and Chandrasekhara?
It is in a purport in the Caitanya Caritamrta regarding the time Sanatan Goswami met Sri Caitanya after escaping from prison. Swami Bhaktivedanta says that because they were not preachers that they are to be considered kanistha adhikaras.
Servant of Krishna,
I cited Radhapada out of a need for an example to hopefully make an otherwise very difficult to make point. Radhapada is a mature individual whom I believe able to lend himself to the noble cause of resolution. I am speaking of a stand in general which he represents. When I say he takes it too personally, I am referring to the absolutely non-negotiation stand some of us are taking. I think this sentiment (or logic, if one prefers that) is rather self defeating. It is personal, but the self serving kind of personal. Prabhupada may have been also guilt of this self centeredness – his neglectful dealings are precisely in session here. But should we then be forever unable to do better ourselves, including to seek to understand the whole of the circumstances that may have led him to be the individual that he was? Are we set to being unforgivable from the start?
The idea here is to get to the bottom of the problem, or at least as near as possible to understanding what was the cause of such aberration done in the name of God. I have sustained the opinion that isolating Bhaktivedanta Swami as the sole source of the problem isn’t realistic or even effective. Every individual who participated or presently remains silent in this movement is responsible accordingly. The counselors of Prabhupada in the past, then the parents of the abused children at the time of abuses, and presently, those who carry on as if the issue is non existent, or pointing fingers as if we never had anything to do with it, all stand as a screaming examples of the wrong kind of personalism.
govindanandini,
I am a pragmatic realist and I do not see much future for resolution within the ISKCON society over the issues of women and other things under discussion here. The fundamental principles of being a follower Swami Bhaktivedanta are under attack here. Prabhupada and ISKCON have created a no fly zone into his contraversal stances, opinions and teachings of its founder and anyone attempting to enter will be shot down. This website exist because it is outside its domain. Probably in due course of time it will be blacklisted.
For the most part, I think that the few here, if they haven’t already, will gain enough strength to go on their own to find the love and beauty of Sri Radha-Krishna. These issues will become old and the rigamorale of trying to resolve them with the people who really need to listen will become a source of frustration. The diehards will not go away. Not much change I forsee. But, good luck if you can make it work.
Radhapada,
This is precisely what I am talking about. You don’t have much desire for resolution but yet you come to point fingers. Why? If you left Iskcon behind, then what is this need of yours to bring up the faults of Iskcon at every opportunity? You forget you contributed your share to this outcome?
As far as a no fly zone, I am actually amazed that you believe Radhakunda is an accessible zone, completely free of the challenges found with the gaudiyas outside of the tradition. If anything, the dynamics at Radhakunda are even more challenging than what we have experienced here in the west. Neglect, abuse, deception, exploitation, and dishonesty are as present there as anywhere. Only there it is in the name of tradition and purity in bhajan. Good luck indeed. To all of us.
Wo wo wait! Tell me, what do you know about Radha Kunda other than what Swami Bhaktivedanta has smeared your brains with that everyone there is a rascal, everyone there is a sahajiya having sex with dozens of women, that all the Vaisnavas there are monkeys, and so on. What is so different about Radha Kunda in terms of Indian culture than any other place in India? Is life in Kashmir different? there are no Gaudiya Vaisnavas there.
I know western women who are totally independent living in Radha Kunda that have not gotten anywhere nearly affronted by the crap that Swami Bhaktivedanta laid on them because of their gender. My Guru never told me to live in separate quarters from my wife there in Radha Kunda because he was afraid I my ‘unbriddled senses’. You folks are totally disempowered. You are made to feel you can’t trust yourselves, you can’t trust your own sense of right or wrong. Look at what Swami Bhaktivedanta tells you, that you should not be alone with your daughter. Only a sick bastard will have sex with his daughter. You are in a poor condition when you disbelieve in your own selves and feel disempowered. You need someone to tell, ‘you’re doing fine’ or ‘no, this is not right’. One of the valuable things I learned from my is to have dignity, do things right for your family and trust myself because I have a brain. That is a lot more than what I learned in years bamboozling people for money in ISKCON. And I won’t get into everything else I learnt because it will make your head spin.
“If anything, the dynamics at Radhakunda are even more challenging than what we have experienced here in the west”
Than the west? Yes. Most definitely.
Than the rest of India? Yes, more challenging than some parts of India even. For women, the entire state of Uttar Pradesh and the surrounding states like Bihar and Rajasthan are very tough.
Moon dot said,
“Than the rest of India? Yes, more challenging than some parts of India even. For women, the entire state of Uttar Pradesh and the surrounding states like Bihar and Rajasthan are very tough.”
Yes, they are so. But, is it because of Caitanya Vaisnavism? Caitanya Vaisnavism is not a major religion in those areas what to speak of India. There maybe devouts of Krsna, but of different traditions that are not of Caitanya Sampradaya.
govindanandini,
I am sorry I sounded so harsh. But let’s reason. I stated that I have 20 years + experience of the culture of ISKCON which is an attempt to create the culture of ancient India within the environment of the modern western world mixed with elements of Caitanya Vaisnavism. This is not the same as people living within the developing nation of India which has a deep rooted cultural system facing the global environment of the modern world. Two different scenarios. They are not a comparison of apples with apples.
I raised the question as to what has been your experience in Radha Kunda? With the limited resources that I estimate you have acquired, in terms of living, associating, and lifestyle there, can you make an honest comparison between an engrained culture found in most of Southern Asia towards women with what has been institutional indoctrination and cult worship of an individual guru in the west?
There is no institution in Radha Kunda. (In our current plane of reality) Radha Kunda is a little village with a mixture of Bengalis, people from Uttar Pradesh, and a very small percent of some other Indians, maybe from Bihar. The Caitanya Sampadaya there is a loose confederation of temples and asramas with no head acarya. The temples and asramas are run automonously and everyone does their own thing.
The many books I have read from there do not delve into matters of disparaging races, sexes, other philosophies, other gurus, what to speak of scientists, government leaders and other nonsensical topics that are diversions from the topics of prayajona. Although by material standards the temples and asramas in Radha Kunda are poor and dilapitated, the Caitanya Vaisnavas there do not harrass pilgrims for money like the local Brjbasi pandas who are not Caitanya Vaisnavas. In fact in my first experience of giving a donation to a Caitanya Vaisnava, the money was returned to me.
Sorry, but you are diverting the topics here bringing up Radha Kunda as a defensive measure. In the city of Rome there are many prostitutes, some of them sex slaves from foreign countries. Is that the fault of the Roman Catholic Church in the Basilica?
In the Caitanya Sampradaya we have women gurus and acaryas like Jahnava Ma, Hemalata Thakaruni, Ganga Ma. No one puts them down or designates inferiority on them because they are women. When a certain Gaudiya Math acarya was asked why Bhaktisiddhanta did not reveal to anyone the parampara of Gaura Kishor Das Baba he replied, ‘Because there were women and what is their realization’. Funny he said that because he was actually refering to the disciplic line of Bhaktivinoda Thakur because he did not know the lineage of Gaura Kishor Das Baba. The women hating became pronounced in the Saraswati Gaudiya Math Sampradaya and filtered into ISKCON by Swami Bhaktivedanta who was a member of it.
Radhapada, you state, “When a certain Gaudiya Math acarya was asked why Bhaktisiddhanta did not reveal to anyone the parampara of Gaura Kishor Das Baba he replied, ‘Because there were women and what is their realization’.”
Which acarya was this and can you please provide the reference for the statement? Thanks.
I think Govindanandini’s point is that Gaudiya Vaishnavism originated in a very patriarchal culture and country to begin with, so some of that will naturally leak over into the religion, and indeed it has, although at the same time bhakti has been a great liberator for women in India has well.
Your point about spiritual books written by other vaishnavas not having all the extra commentary about women and social stuff is correct. That is unique to ISKCON.
[...] 8, 2008 by Vrajabhumi In the snafu post “Moon dot” wrote I think Govindanandini’s point is that Gaudiya Vaishnavism originated in a very patriarchal [...]
Servant of Krishna, 31,
It is a false assertion that Srila Prabhupada said that women like to be raped “so damn many times”. Look it up in the Vedabase. There are 19 times where he used the word rape and only 2 times where he talks about rape in that context. The one we all know about and another one where he is talking about a court case where a lawyer used this argument in a courtroom.
“So damned many times” makes it sound like it was a major theme. Twice doesn’t qualify.
That is just simply false.
False characterization does not add credibility to your argument.
Radhapada,
I still think you are naive in your estimation of Radhakunda’s socio-religious dynamics. I know of Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati’s historic attack on the babajis. I am aware of the ongoing “boycott the sahajiya babajis” line. I have added my voice to the objection to these attacks. But I have come to see by my own experience that there are indeed dishonest and greedy babajis at Radhakunda, neglected and exploited women, and babajis of repute and position who, nonetheless, chose to not do or say anything about these problems. Just open your other eye and see the full picture.
Makanchor,
Your point is that we should take what Prabhupada says at different levels of seriousness dependent on the number of times he says something?
Is this some new epistemological approach to philosophy and theology you have invented, or is it a standard approach in some school of rhetoric which I am unaware of?
govindanandini said,
“But I have come to see by my own experience that there are indeed dishonest and greedy babajis at Radhakunda, neglected and exploited women, and babajis of repute and position who, nonetheless, chose to not do or say anything about these problems. Just open your other eye and see the full picture.”
Thanks for your comment and again I apologize for being so harsh. It was a knee jerk reaction.
Yes, there is human suffering there, though nowhere near what goes on in Africa, but yes. Unfortunately, this goes on a village level, state level and in many places in India. The question is though, are these problems the result of doctrinal teachings or deep rooted culturalism compounded with poverty and lack of governmental intervention? The economically empaired village of Radha Kunda is not an institution. No one is preaching from a pulpit there that that situation is what should be.
In ISKCON though, Swami Bhaktivedanta had envisioned for its members to revert the west into the harsh conditions of Indian society that he viewed as superior to the technologicaly advanced and liberal west. People speak of a mythological vedic culture, but the negative human elements will always exists in people, namely exploitation and greed. When you have exploitation and greed within a materially deprived environment then it can become quite unbearable.
I have lived abroad in many places around the world. I find that my country of birth and citizenship here in America is a great place to live and succeed in life. People here have it really good compared to other places around the world. There should be nothing really to complain about.
govindanandini said,
“But I have come to see by my own experience that there are indeed dishonest and greedy babajis at Radhakunda, neglected and exploited women, and babajis of repute and position who, nonetheless, chose to not do or say anything about these problems. Just open your other eye and see the full picture.”
There have been an abundance of dishonest and greedy sannyasis in ISKCON, neglected and exploited women in ISKCON. What is the difference? That in ISKCON there is doctrinal support to rationalize these situations. “By hook or crook, get them to take a book”. “The spiritual master should ride in a car made of gold”. “The spiritual master is as good as God”. “Women should learn cooking and little eduction, ABC”. “Women are not in the same class as men”. “Women get better when you beat them”. “Although illegal women like a man who is expert at rape.” When you have doctrinal support from the guru of the institution, how can you fight it?
Brings to my previous point about resolution, I do not forsee much change. Prabhupada’s word is God’s word in ISKCON doctrine and if he says women should not be educated otherwise they will become prostitute you either have to live with it or get out. Listen to what the voices of ISKCON like Praghosh, Harisauri and the lot have to say about the matter.
Brings to my previous point about resolution, I do not forsee much change. Prabhupada’s word is God’s word in ISKCON doctrine and if he says women should not be educated otherwise they will become prostitute you either have to live with it or get out. Listen to what the voices of ISKCON like Praghosh, Harisauri and the lot have to say about the matter.
When everything is said and done, I am still glad that someone gave me a book “by hook”, and that I started my Hare Krishna ‘carrier’ thus. Sure it would have been perhaps better if I had instead somehow awaken on my own, went to India and sat at the feet of a pure traditionalist who would have helped me soar high on the wings of pure bhajan. But for some mysterious reason, and surely under God’s supervision, things went the way they went.
Bhaktivedanta Swami, and Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati before him, both had a vision of a worldwide Gaudiya Vaisnavism. But both, sadly, expected to transport to the west some old wine of Indian bigotry and shortsightedness to be served in a new institutional bottle.
Through Iskcon, Bhaktivedanta Swami was the man who happened to have proffered some wrong words at the wrong time at the wrong place in history (there never is, actually, a right place and time for certain ideas). But those words did not come out of a vacuum. They have been around on this planet apparently since the inception of humankind.
Lets theorize on probabilities: considering how Indian culture (along with the middle East and Africa) have upheld misogyny, casteism, etc into present times, it is quite possible that any other Gaudiya Vaisnava coming West in place of Bhaktivedanta Swami would have tried to establish the same style of society Swami propounded. The fact that westerners such as Praghosh and Harisauri perpetrate such absurdity appears to indicate that resolution is rather a possibility. Individuals such as these are coming out more and more for the bigots that they are. We might indeed rejoice and have faith in the inherent good of our fellow vaisnavas. For every Harisauri and Praghosh we can be assured there are dozens of more leveled head man and women among us rejecting these aberrations, and acting on it according to each one’s desire for real bhakti.
Iskcon officials have already shown signs of awakening to the need to curtail some extreme statements made by Bhaktivedanta Swami.
There should be hope in the horizon.
govindanandini said,
“For every Harisauri and Praghosh we can be assured there are dozens of more leveled head man and women among us rejecting these aberrations, and acting on it according to each one’s desire for real bhakti.”
Where are they? I see no men here on your side. I barely see any women. Where are the voices of ISKCON you speak about?. A few people probably poked their heads in, but saw how serious it was getting and got spooked off.
govindanandini says,
“Lets theorize on probabilities: considering how Indian culture (along with the middle East and Africa) have upheld misogyny, casteism, etc into present times, it is quite possible that any other Gaudiya Vaisnava coming West in place of Bhaktivedanta Swami would have tried to establish the same style of society Swami propounded.”
ISKCON is not the only organization that has brought teachings of India to the west. In 1902 Premananda Bharati brought the teachings of Mahaprabhu to the west. America during that period was a lot less tolerant of foreign religions than in the 1960’s. There is no negative history to date. There were Adwaitin teachers and yoga teachers that came throughout the 20th century. You don’t hear of frictions of trying to implant a foreign ‘vedic’ order on its women followers as did Swami Bhaktivedanta in ISKCON.
This is an internet forum. Surely you don’t expect the resolution to happen here exclusively. Personally I know many who think like me and you. The real balanced devotees are actually outside of Iskcon. How could it be otherwise. No one is really inside 100%, the institution makes as it goes. This is why I am willing to believe that even Bhaktivedanta Swami, were he present right now, would probably revise his statements. If nothing else, as an strategy. Indeed this seems to be what the GBC is trying to do. One thing is sure, as Vrajabhumi propounds here, there is no question that Krishna isn’t ultimately in control of it all. Or so we like to believe, don’t we?
Radhapada you said,
ISKCON is not the only organization that has brought teachings of India to the west. In 1902 Premananda Bharati brought the teachings of Mahaprabhu to the west. America during that period was a lot less tolerant of foreign religions than in the 1960’s. There is no negative history to date. There were Adwaitin teachers and yoga teachers that came throughout the 20th century. You don’t hear of frictions of trying to implant a foreign ‘vedic’ order on its women followers as did Swami Bhaktivedanta in ISKCON.
We know that. We know others came before Bhaktivedanta Swami. But he made it really big in a relatively short time. Therefore the imperfections were more visible and consequences proportionally disturbing.
Again your question is, why didn’t the “right” preacher come in his place and time? From a Gaudiya point of view, this question itself is “wrong”.
Radhapada says, ” When you have doctrinal support from the guru of the institution, how can you fight it?…Prabhupada’s word is God’s word in ISKCON doctrine and…you either have to live with it or get out.”
This, to me, is absolutely the central point of the whole issue. ISKCON is a completely bizarre and dysfunctional cult of personality built around Prabhupada, the “as good as God” “Founder-Acarya.” Thus the only hope for sanity and a real, genuine spiritual life that is not tainted with all of these offensive and deplorable ideas is to get out, as Radhapada says here.
Servant of Krishna wrote,
ISKCON is a completely bizarre and dysfunctional cult of personality built around Prabhupada, the “as good as God” “Founder-Acarya.” Thus the only hope for sanity and a real, genuine spiritual life that is not tainted with all of these offensive and deplorable ideas is to get out
Just as bizarre and dysfunctional as any cult. Sai Baba’s institution is such, as was Osho’s, and western cults as well, the catholic church, etc. There is no endeavor in this world that is not touched by imperfections. Vide Bhagavadb gita 3.39.
Yes, but just because there have been other cult leaders who are/were as bad as or worse than Prabhupada, or just because there are other cults that are just as bizarre and dysfunctional as ISKCON, that is not a good reason to stay in it! Let it crash and burn. It’s clearly already in the process of imploding. There is a whole world out there, and a wonderful, fullfilling spiritual life OUTSIDE of the cultish institution…..
There is a whole world out there, and a wonderful, fullfilling spiritual life OUTSIDE of the cultish institution…..
True. When people find fulfillment there is a natural ripple effect where others around are benefitted. Personally I don’t believe in “crash and burn”. It sounds cultish to me.
Answers.com defines “crash and burn” as “To fail utterly.” The term has no “cultish” connotations, Govindanandini.
At least go somewhere you get some level of respect and appreciation for what you are. When Swami Bhaktivedanta was faced with criticism for brainwashing his followers his response was that people have no brains, but he is giving people brains. Think about how your children will develop if you constantly told them that they are low class, have no brains, you can’t trust them, lusty, and rascal–would you expect to raise a healthy child that way? It is not so different because a disciple takes shelter of a Guru as a child takes shelter of his parents and the environment provided by them. Totally dysfunctional.
“It’s clearly already in the process of imploding. There is a whole world out there, and a wonderful, fullfilling spiritual life OUTSIDE of the cultish institution…..”
Amen to that!
But I don’t agree that all cults/institutions are equally dysfuntional.
There are groups of spiritualists out there who ARE functional.
Servant of Krsna,
I said it sounds cultish to me. My experience with Iskcon wasn’t an utterly failure because I am still here, interested in Gaudiya Vaisnavism.
Think about how your children will develop if you constantly told them that they are low class, have no brains, you can’t trust them, lusty, and rascal–would you expect to raise a healthy child that way?
Would you expect to raise a healthy child if you constantly pointed out to her how one specific individual was so nasty, nasty, nasty…
Govindanandini, #61: I am still not only “interested in Gaudiya Vaishnavism,” but it is the “reality” on which I base my entire life. I love the philosophy (the beautiful, ancient philosophy that is there underneath Prabhupada’s misogynistic, racist and abusive distortions and which was really what drew everyone to ISKCON in the first place), I love the Holy Names and I love chanting Hare Krishna – both in the form of japa and kirtana. I have just come to see ISKCON as a completely toxic institution.
P.S. And I have come to see Prabhupada’s misogynistic, racist and abusive presentation of Vaishnavism as COMPLETELY toxic.
No, of course not. But that’s the life of ISKCON, you cannot trust anyone because everyone is bad, even yourself.
As a parent one needs to first have a loving relationship with a child starting from day one, providing them security, encouraging them and applauding them when they do something positive. And very important, you need to tactfully guide them to think for themselves. If they see that you love them, you allow them the freedom of expression, and provide positive structure in their lives then they grow up happy, confident about themselves and smart.
Only abused individuals cannot tell if a person is not of good charector. That’s because their self esteem is so sunken that they think they deserve the ill treatment, or that’s the only thing they know.
Insights of abused gurukulis regarding Prabhupada and child abuse…..
http://web.archive.org/web/19981205005548/http://ccrgroup.com/voice/
Just to let everyone know, that link by Servant of Krishna leads to an archived page at the Internet Archive:
http://web.archive.org/web/19981205005548/http://ccrgroup.com/voice/
All the links are dead, but they can be accessed at the Internet Archive by inputting the URL of each link into this search engine http://web.archive.org/web
Every link that you are led to on any page from that website will have to be searched for at http://web.archive.org/web
I have learned a lot of good things when I was in ISKCON. However, I honestly say, that I have become a better and fulfilled person leaving it behind. I cannot bring myself to visit a place where there is hate, discrimmination and disatisfaction veiled by colorful clothes, chanting, dancing and good food. I don’t even sense the basic human feelings of warmth and joy in most I meet there. I feel a whole lot more of it from my non-devotee co-workers, colleagues and neighbors than people in ISKCON.
Radhapada, the “good things” we all learned in ISKCON were the “gold” (Lord Krishna, His Holy Names and the timeless Vaishnava philosophy) that we were able to take from the “filthy place” that is the otherwise misogynistic, racist and abusive “teachings” of Bhaktivedanta Swami and his toxic organization.
Yes, take the gold and move on. I have not heard of any reports of lightening bolts falling on anyone’s head as a consequence.
govindanandini,
“My experience with Iskcon wasn’t an utterly failure because I am still here, interested in Gaudiya Vaisnavism.”
Take that and run with it. Sri Gauranga and Sri Nityananda are eager to give you their mercy.
“Makanchor,
Your point is that we should take what Prabhupada says at different levels of seriousness dependent on the number of times he says something?
Is this some new epistemological approach to philosophy and theology you have invented, or is it a standard approach in some school of rhetoric which I am unaware of?”
No it’s just plain common sense.
You are trying to fit Srila Prabhupada in to a box of your choosing by mischaracterizing him. That is a fact. An example of this is your characterization that a major part of his teaching is something that he mentioned twice.
Radhapada wrote
protekshun…we gots plenty
Makhanchor
I never said “a major part of his teaching” is saying women like to be raped. Nor did I say “a major part of his teaching” is that blacks should be enslaved. But he did say those things. You’re saying that the number of times Prabhupada said something should determine to what degree he meant it. I was just wondering how is that common sense? What school of thought are you basing your “common sense” epistemological approach in your critique of Prabhupada’s words?
Makhanchor, the bottom line is that, having set himself up as being “as good as God” to his thousands of obedient slave-like followers who accepted his every word as absolute truth, Bhaktivedanta Swami MINIMALLY had the obligation of “austerity of speech.” That he clearly did NOT have. Rather, he randomly blurted out whatever ridiculous and untrue idea popped into his head at any given time and, worse, called these unfortunate, destructive rantings “ecstasies” and directly implied that they were coming from Krishna, which he then published as “purports” in the sacred Bhagavatam.
I will not mention that such indiscriminate “blurting” that has no basis in reality is unflatteringly and derogatorily referred to as “talking out of one’s ass” in modern vernacular.