This is a response to a comment from Ashvauttama Das about the attempt to have Prabhupada’s books annotated on the Have Another Hit post.
Ashvauttama wrote:
I read the BBT decision with great interest. I find it peculiar that they are so against editing or commenting in Prabhupada´s books when it comes to these matters, when they obviously had no problems doing all the other changes in Prabhupada´s original books.
But it was at least nice to hear they have dedicated a website for the notes and comments on controversial statements. Do you know the address to this website?
The GBC was for annotating Prabhupada’s books, they passed a resolution to that effect at their Mayapur meeting in March-April 2008. As that information was made public via a number of websites a huge outcry ensued from Prabhupada fanatics everywhere. They started an online petition, etc. The GBC then caved in and decided against it. It’s similar to how Prabhupada fanatics control the moon hoax debate in ISKCON, even though I’m sure most leaders know it’s crazy, you don’t see them saying that in public. To see this effect in action see this article and the link to Dandavats.com in it:
Breaking News: ISKCON offical news site assures us Moon landing was a hoax
It reminds me of the current debacle in America over the question of Barack Obama’s citizenship. It’s been a leading story in the mainstream media for a while now. What that’s about: before the recent election, a right wing extremist tried to create the belief that Obama was born in Kenya, and therefore was not eligible to be president of the USofA. One of the tricks he used was to show a partial video of one of Obama’s relatives in Kenya saying that Obama was born in Kenya. The rest of the video showed that she was being mistranslated and she was not saying Obama was born in Kenya, but he left that part out. He then claimed that Obama’s birth certificate was a forgery. When that was proven wrong he claimed that his birth certificate wasn’t relevant anyways. When records from a Honolulu newspaper show a birth announcement for Obama in 1961, which were only given by hospitals, still they reject that and claim some type of conspiracy.
No matter how much evidence there is that shows Obama to have been born in Hawaii, there is a large contingent of right wing fanatics, who, blinded by their strong desire to see Obama not be allowed to be president, will simply not accept that he has as much proof or more than the average American for their birth status. How have the leaders of the political right wing in America reacted? Because those people who can’t accept the truth about Obama are their core constituency, most of the politicians won’t say they believe Obama was born in Hawaii. Even though the fanatics have clearly lost their reasoning power due to their hatred of Obama, most of the politicians who depend on them for votes are too fearful to publicly disagree with them, which now has caused those politicians to be ridiculed by most everyone else.
That is what is happening with the moon hoax debate in ISKCON. The fanatics are blind to reality because they want Prabhupada to be right because he is a person they hold up to the world as the ultimate perfect being world savior who is on speaking terms with God. Even though the evidence shows that there was no way they could have created a fake moon like environment 40 years ago, they cannot accept the truth. Even today it is impossible to recreate the gravity and vacuum of the moon’s surface which accounted for the way that dirt and dust reacted to falling when kicked up by astronauts and the moon rover, etc.
Recent photos taken from a moon orbiter show stuff left by the Apollo missions for the first time. Also, there was no way to fake what the moon actually looked like from the surface 40 years ago. Recent scans of the moons surface by a Japanese moon orbiter show for the first time what the surface of the moon actually looks like in 3-d — they match photos taken by the Apollo missions on the moon. Here is a video with screen captures showing this fact:
Photo from Apollo astronaut
3-d image of the same spot as the above taken by Japanese Kaguya moon orbiter
As for your question about a website, yes, at the official BBT website they have a section for what they call “Tough Ones,” but they do not mention Prabhupada’s racist comments about Jews and his racist comments about black people nor his comment in support of slavery for black people. They also have a section for his views on modern science, which hasn’t been filled in yet. Maybe they are afraid of claiming that Prabhupada was wrong about the moon landing because he was often so very adamant that it was impossible for humans to go to the moon and severely ridiculed people who thought it was. That wouldn’t fit in with the rest of their excuses for Prabhupada, which they try to make it seem were simple cultural misunderstandings, e.g. what Jayadvaita and Rupa Vilas wrote about Prabhupada’s rape comments is lame. They do not cite everything Prabhupada said about rape. They then try to make it seem that Prabhupada simply meant that women like an aggressive lover, when in reality Prabhupada specifically stated that he was talking about real rape, i.e. forced non-consensual sexual assault. In the purport they analyze, Prabhupada states he means real illegal rape, but somehow they come to the conclusion that he didn’t really mean that:
Purport SB 4.25.41
In this regard, the word vikhyatam is very significant. A man is always famous for his aggression toward a beautiful woman, and such aggression is sometimes considered rape. Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape.
And they don’t even mention this next statement where Prabhupada is very clear in stating that women inwardly enjoy being raped, real rape! This shows his attitude towards rape very clearly. So their arguments that Prabhupada didn’t mean real rape in the Bhagavatam purport are B.S.
Morning Walk — May 11, 1975, Perth
Prabhupada: Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, “Yes, I felt happiness.” So he was released. “Here is consent.” And that’s a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, “Yes, I felt some pleasure.” “Now, there is consent.” So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That’s a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology.
In the section on women they never mention the countless times Prabhupada mistranslated Bhagavad Gita 9.32. Nor his many statements stating that women are of low birth, sinful birth, have brains half the size of men, are not intelligent, have the maturity level of young boys, etc. They also ignore what Prabhupada really taught about how women and girls should live, i.e. no education for girls besides learning how to read and write, and all women should be kept as housewives/slaves, otherwise they are all “prostitutes.” They also ignore the statements Prabhupada made saying that there are no female scientists, philosophers, or mathematicians in human history.
To see their excuses go to:
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Morton%27s_demon
Morton’s Demon explains the strawmen wars that go on between any groups with completely opposing viewpoints. Only data that supports the views of each group is allowed “in.” Any data challenging that view is disregarded or not even considered. In this way, people can cling to the idea that Obama is not really their president and could be thrown out if only they could find the evidence to prove it. Those wanting to believe in Vedic scriptures’ literal truth about everything refuse to believe we could go to the moon. Others, troubled by the scientific evidence that we did, put the whole issue on a back shelf in their minds so that they can continue to enjoy the things they like about ISKCON or Prabhupada and disregard anything that gets in the way of that.
Many of us have blind spots like this that trip us up and it’s good to review our beliefs occasionally and see where we might be a victim of Morton’s Demon.
As I explain in another post http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2009/01/14/can-you-answer/ the idea that humans cannot go to the moon as the Apollo mission did, was an invention by Prabhupada. Vedic scriptures don’t say that, they were written in a pre-technological age, the conception that humans could go to the moon by technology was not dealt with.
What Prabhupada was trying to uphold was the notion that what little astronomy was mentioned in various scriptures was absolutely true. Therefore the idea we could go to the moon, which appeared to contradict that placement of bodies in our solar system as represented by various texts, had to be vigorously challenged. This led to ridiculous inventions on his part in order to uphold the notion that the sun is closer to Earth than the moon and other fantastical details from shastra–including the notion that Rahu and Ketu are real celestial bodies.)
Tapati
When the space race between America and the Soviets began in the 1950s it was a big news item all over the world for many years. That was when Prabhupada started to teach that “you had to be qualified” to travel to other planets or the moon.
At the time his preaching efforts with the League of Devotees had not been successful, and he would write many letters and essays for his newsletter and other outlets. I believe speaking about space travel was simply his way to try to get attention by saying something provocative about the most popular news item of the times.
Later, after he had started ISKCON, the space race was again a very popular news item, so again he simply repeated what he had written earlier. This is how he used the space race as a preaching platform (I’m paraphrasing):
For example here is a passage from Easy Journey to Other Planets
He then goes on to state how you can become a qualified yogi. And of course the first thing you need is — to submit to and please a guru, which of course, he was — because simply “by a guru’s good wishes” you can become qualified:
Denying that humans could go to the moon was simply a rhetorical device he had used in his preaching because it was the big news of the day and he wanted attention. Later, after the the moon landings he said this:
It was clear that he feared losing credibility as God’s right hand man if the moon landings took place. For years he had denied it was possible, and for years he had claimed authority as God’s only true spokesman. Therefore his idea was that he had to deny the moon landings took place otherwise “Krishna consciousness becomes bogus,” when really the only thing that would become bogus by the moon landings was the conception that Prabhupada was God’s all-knowing perfect right hand man. He knew that, but instead claimed that Krishna would lose credibility instead of himself. I don’t think he was so concerned about the literal accuracy of Puranic cosmology being challenged, that was easy to write off, which he did at times (along with Bhaktivinoda), claiming that it could be taken metaphorically. But he was concerned about how he would be perceived after denying the possibility of humans on the moon for so many years. So when some devotees told him about a book claiming a hoax, he latched onto that and stuck with it.
Vrajabhumi,
thank you for the links and information!
I looked at the Tough Ones, and I cannot say I am very impressed with the attempts of explanations from such supposed learned and advanced devotees.
Vrajabhumi,
Could you give reference to the correct translation of Bhagavad-gita 9.32?
It’s really the grammar that is wrong in Prabhupada’s Gita. It’s not saying that women, sudras and vaisyas are papa-yoni (of sinful birth) who can attain the highest place, it’s saying that women, sudras, vaisyas and papa-yoni can attain the highest destination. People outside of the Vedic religious system were considered papa-yoni.
This is something I wrote a while back on this topic:
Later someone wrote a comment saying that Sridhar Swami (the one from hundreds of years ago) in his commentary to the Gita had said something similar:
Vrajabhumi: It’s really the grammar that is wrong in Prabhupada’s Gita. It’s not saying that women, sudras and vaisyas are papa-yoni (of sinful birth) who can attain the highest place, it’s saying that women, sudras, vaisyas and papa-yoni can attain the highest destination. People outside of the Vedic religious system were considered papa-yoni.
Gita press Gorakhpur has 2 versions of Gita. One by Sri Jayadayal Goenka and another by Swami Ramsukh Das.
Both of these versions agree with Vrajabhumi’s translation.
I 100% agree with Vrajabhumi..
Anyone who mistranslates/preaches Mistranslated Bhagavad Gita should be bought to the law. Prabhupada was just at tip of “probably” going to be confiscated if he would have lived a few years more (as he would have entered period of debilated Venus).
Even Michael Jackson -death is easy to understand from astrology: Mercury being 1st(body) and 10th(midheaven) lord placed in 12th house of grant misery/failure + malefic planet joining it, and rahu in first house of body.
His mercury period started from yr 1998 till yr 2013 showing strong dainya yoga effect. Its easy to understand person will meet big misfortune in this period. Michael Jackson though had a divine sort of moon-jupiter relation.
I dont actually want to bring in astrology into all this..
Still – the effect of Prabhupada was somewhat needed. No westerners were accepting Bhagavad Gita. So he purposely mistranslated Bhagavad Gita.
Prabhupada’s Karma is very strong. This is most powerful horoscope I have ever seen. It is best possible mathematical horoscope possible(except for issue of religion).
Even though few killings/rape/murder went about in ISKCON, it was absolutely necessary that Americans become Krishna Conscious. And that undermines, all mistranslation, racism, sexism or whatever he has done.
And Americans are now left to build their own Hare Krishna religion by looking into all these and other 100s of books.
persons like Vrajabhumi may be qualified to correct Hare Krishna literatures.
Vrajabhumi, that may be why he chose to push the subject, but the literal adherence to every statement of shastra is a recurring theme in his writing and speaking. I present here a portion of a famous (or infamous) conversation he had with Jamadagni and Kanupriya. I was told by Kanupriya that just before the conversation someone had told Prabhupada that these two men were “fallen” and “in maya” and living outside the temple sphere, so Prabhupada perhaps does not think they are sincere as he’s talking to them for that reason alone. Btw, I’ve heard this isn’t in the official records but I know that both Jamadagni and Kanupriya have recordings of the entire conversation. I have a bit more than this section.
Jamadagni: All right. But we have some, also, questions that don’t require that. These are philosophical questions. For instance, in Krsna Book there is a statement that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now you have asked that we go and spread Krsna consciousness to the scientific community.
Prabhupada: So everyone is servant. What is the question of four billion? Krsna’s servant…
Jamadagni: No, Ugrasena, King Ugrasena, that when he was on the planet, he had four billion personal servants.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. He is always the master. He… The Krsna is the only master.
Jamadagni: Not Krsna. No. King Ugrasena, Prabhupada. Not Krsna. King Ugrasena. The statement is that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now, we have gone and tried to spread to the scientific community. And if we say to them, “There was a king whose name was Ugrasena. He had four billion personal servants,” they laugh and say, “What did they do for toilets? What did they do for food? Where did they live?”
Prabhupada: So you want to preach this particular portion and no other portion?
Kanupriya: No. We want to… We want to know if the story has an allegorical meaning rather than a literal translation, or that King Ugrasena who was a man who lived five thousand years ago and had four billion bodyguards, or whether the stories within the Bhagavatam, apart from some of them being actual, are allegorical stories. Such as the story of Krsna and Balarama chopping off the the eighty-eight…
Prabhupada: All right. You can give up that portion. You can take other portion.
Jamadagni: We don’t mean to give it up.
Kanupriya: We don’t mean to give it up.
Jamadagni: We’re saying how can we say to them…
Prabhupada: Anyone, anyone… Why you are going to preach that portion to a professor?
Kanupriya: No. When they read your books, they pose that question to us.
Jamadagni: They read it. They say to us.
Kanupriya: And unless we can answer that question…
Prabhupada: They ask to only you, but they never ask to us.
Revatinandana: They have. Sometimes they ask me.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. Let them ask. But you can tell away that(?) but you don’t repeat this thing. You can give up that portion. You read other portion.
Kanupriya: But then because so many things they have to accept on faith without knowing, it then weakens their faith as to what they should accept and why should they accept Krsna, who they can’t see any more than King Ugrasena’s four billion bodyguards.
Prabhupada: Don’t accept. Don’t accept.
Jamadagni: But we want them to accept. The point is, if we say to a scientific man, “There was four billion,” and if our statement is wrong…
Prabhupada: But our position is that if some portion we cannot understand, it is our incapability.
Jamadagni: That is all right. But since we are…
Prabhupada: That’s all. Unless we have got this faith we cannot use these Puranas. In the Puranas there are many such statements.
Jamadagni: Yes, but we just want to understand.
Prabhupada: Therefore many people, they do not accept Puranas. So what can be done?
Jamadagni: We’re just trying to understand it because we’ve never dealt with Puranas before. We have been your disciples. But when we present this to the scientific community, because you have said that if one word is wrong, the whole philosophy is wrong, so they will say to us…
Prabhupada: So let them take it and throw out, don’t read it. That’s all.
Jamadagni: But then they discredit the Bhagavad-gita. We don’t like that when they discredit the Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Why? They don’t believe. What is the use?
Jamadagni: Well, because we also want to know how did they have four billion personal servants just so that we’ll be able to convince them and also…
Prabhupada: If a king has four billion servants, so it is not very astonishing. Why do you think that a king shall have only four servants?
Jamadagni: Well, there’s only two billion people on the planet right now.
Prabhupada: That’s all right.
Jamadagni: So where did they all go?
Prabhupada: I say you don’t believe, you don’t take it. Why you are insisting on that point? If you don’t believe, you don’t take it. If you don’t believe the whole book or the whole society, then who forbids you?
Jamadagni: We were hoping that there are some things which can be improved, because they have not been set up by you.
Prabhupada: No. You cannot improve. Whatever we are, we are.
Jamadagni: Why can we not improve it?
Prabhupada: No. There is no possibility.
Jamadagni: Then what is the use of action?
Prabhupada: Action, whatever action we can do by chanting Hare Krsna, that’s all.
Jamadagni: But we also have to make varnasrama society or farms or businesses.
Prabhupada: That, when we shall do, we shall see to it.
Jamadagni: But we are doing it. We are.
Kanupriya: We are doing it now, and that’s the question…
Prabhupada: So do it in your own way.
Jamadagni: We don’t want to. We want to do everything Krsna’s way.
Prabhupada: Stop it. Stop it. I say stop it. You have come to me for my advice. I say you stop it.
Jamadagni: Then, we say, what should we do?
Prabhupada: You should do your business. That’s all. Earn money and enjoy.
Jamadagni: No, I mean what should we do Krsna consciously?
Prabhupada: You give up Krsna consciousness, I say. That is my advice.
Jamadagni: Why should we do that?
Prabhupada: Then that I cannot say.
Kanupriya: Isn’t there a middle of the road?
Prabhupada: If you are finding so many faults, you give it up.
Kanupriya: No. We’re not finding fault.
Prabhupada: Then there is no other advance, alternative. No alternative. Either you accept or reject it.
Kanupriya: We accept, but we would like some instruction on…
Prabhupada: No. I have no such knowledge to convince you.
Kanupriya: No, we accept Krsna consciousness philosophy…
Prabhupada: That’s all right. Accept, or if you reject, reject.
Kanupriya: We accept.
Jamadagni: We want to apply it.
Kanupriya: We want to apply it to the world as it is now.
Prabhupada: No no. You cannot. You are not authorized.
Kanupriya: Well, who is authorized?
Prabhupada: The authorized… You are not authorized. Who is authorized, that is not your business.
Jamadagni: Then what does it mean to become disciple?
Prabhupada: Disciple, if you don’t like, give it up.
Jamadagni: We do like it.
Prabhupada: You have already given up.
Jamadagni: If we didn’t like it, we would not come here.
Prabhupada: No, no. You have already given up. My disciples do not keep so many hair.
Jamadagni: Many of your disciples do.
Prabhupada: No. I don’t accept that. You just this one circle, little. But those who are keeping big hairs, they are rejected from my disciples.
Jamadagni: All right. That is clearing some things up.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jamadagni: This is what we want to know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jamadagni: Because then that is an unequivocal statement.
Prabhupada: No. This is, that you can, that anyone who is keeping hairs and not following the rules and regulations, they are rejected from second initiation.
Jamadagni: What if they are keeping hair but they are following the rules and regulations.
Prabhupada: Then let them follow. That’s a good life. But from external features he must be a Vaisnava.
Jamadagni: To get second initiation.
Kanupriya: Does that mean shaved head?
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when His students used to come without tilaka, so He refused to see his face. He refused to see his face. He said it is a crematory ground.
Jamadagni: Why is that?
Prabhupada: There is no “why.” If you accept it, accept. If you don’t accept, leave us, leave us. There is no “why.”
Jamadagni: Then that is…
Prabhupada: You are not following strictly. You cannot ask why.
Jamadagni: We could not ask why when we were following strictly either, Prabhupada. So I’m sorry that it has to be this way.
Prabhupada: No, our thing is that we have got some principles. If anyone cannot follow, then we don’t accept him.
Kanupriya: Then what do you do with the rest of the world, except for the few people who…
Prabhupada: So what I can do I am doing. Therefore you have no right to ask me. What is possible by me I am doing. And those who are able to follow, they are following. That’s all.
Jamadagni: But they cannot engage anyone else. How can you reach the intelligent class?
Prabhupada: So that is their business. That is not your business.
Jamadagni: We are trying to be disciples, so we considered it our business because we are sincerely trying.
Prabhupada: So why you are bothering me? You do your business.
Jamadagni: Because from you only…
Prabhupada: I do not accept you because you are keeping hairs.
Jamadagni: I did not know that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jamadagni: You never told me that in Hawaii.
Prabhupada: Now I say, I’ll repeat that anyone who is keeping long hairs, he is no more my disciple.
Jamadagni: All right.
Prabhupada: This is the first condition.
Kanupriya: Does that apply also for householder dharma, or is that simply for brahmacari dharma? Even you… I have pictures of you on the Bhagavatam when you did not have shaved head, with a mustache when you were doing your business as a householder. So does that apply to householders, or only to brahmacaris, that a householder must also keep a shaved head or is that…?
Prabhupada: At that time I was not initiated. You were seeing my picture, mustaches, at that time I was not initiated. Since I became initiated, I have shaven.
Kanupriya: Well, in India where one can do business…
Prabhupada: I can… Why you are bringing this question? You ask, “Why you had mustaches?” I say when I had mustaches, at that time, I was not initiated. That answer is given. That’s all.
Jamadagni: Can I ask one more question, Prabhupada? What I would like to understand is why it is wrong to ask why? If I can just understand this, why it is wrong for us to ask you in a submissive way. We were humbly asking you these “whys,” not because we are trying to be intimidating or we were trying to rebel, but because we have sincerely tried to understand as your disciples.
Prabhupada: So you better ask my so many other disciples?
Kanupriya: They don’t have any answers.
Prabhupada: Then there is no answer. I cannot attend so many things.
Jamadagni: We are not so many.
Kanupriya: But these are the same questions which we have talked over with Revatinandana Swami and Jayatirtha. A great many…
Prabhupada: If my disciples, advanced students, cannot answer, then I am sorry. I cannot answer. I cannot answer.
Jamadagni: That we did not know. That we did not know.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now you know it. I have appointed so many GBCs because to help me. It is not possible to see everyone, individual. This is not…
Kanupriya: But these are the same questions which they themselves are posing to you.
Revatinandana: I have never met any other people who asked questions on the level that they are asking questions. I cannot answer many of their questions. I have studied all your books.
Prabhupada: I cannot. If you cannot, I cannot also. Because you have been taught by me, if you cannot, then it is…
Jamadagni: We have also been taught.
Revatinandana: I have read your books, and I have heard you lecture. And so many things they are asking, I am, have no capacity to answer them. But you must have the capacity because you know Krsna. Therefore they want to ask you personally.
Prabhupada had 6th lord in 9th + debilated venus in 9th whcih means he mostly betrayed his religion.
If there is a bad house lord(6-enemy/8-death/12-misery) in house of religion, it means- he is a betrayer of religion.
Neither Lord Rama, Lord Krishna have active ninth house of religion. (some good people have positive ninth house of religion)
Prabhupada’s moon-jupiter relation is bad.(he always considers either one is God or daemon. this is due to his bad moon-jupiter relation)
Neither does Prabhupada seem to have planets at auspicious angles.
People with such similar combinations will worship Prabhupada/sell Prabhupada books.
So now I’ve been accused of having an “indirect participation and endorsement of a fraud” for posting how people can submit articles for your consideration and not exposing you, Vrajabhumi, as some sort of fraud. You are said to be a man posing as a woman and to have some sort of nefarious agenda.
For the record this was my response:
“I don’t pretend to know who Vrajabhumi (of harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com) is. I only know that some of what Vrajabhumi writes resonates with me. I disagree with some of what is written and when I do, I say so.”
I find it unlikely that a man would choose to speak to an audience of Gaudiyas metaphorically clothed as a woman, since women aren’t generally listened to or given any respect in present day Western Gaudiya circles. But if it were true, and a man is coming forth under the name Vrajabhumi to shine a light on misogyny, racism, and homophobia, I fail to see how that is a bad thing. The point is the content, not the person delivering it. If you agree, does it matter who is speaking? If you disagree, are you somehow less able to make your points in disagreement because you don’t know who is speaking?
I find it amusing that this charge was made behind the cloak of “anonymous.”
I trust that would-be contributors are capable of discerning for themselves whether this is a project they trust in and respect or not.
That conversation does not make sense. Not asking “why” will result in blind following.
If you read Bhagavad Gita carefully, you will find that internal consciousness matters. For example, Krishna says that those who remember Him are sure to attain Him.
Internal remembrance is independent of external circumstances. You can have long hair or no hairs, you can wear any type of clothes etc.
If you mean to say that putting tilak etc are necessary for one to attain Krishna, then it is wrong philosophy.
Social circumstances and cultures will change. What we see wrong/right will change! But following principle will remain true:
Smartavyah satatam visnur
Vismartavyo na jatucit
Sarve vidhi nisedhah syur
Etayor eva kinkarah
Vishnu should always be remembered and never forgotten at any moment. All the rules (actions to be performed) and prohibitions (actions not to be performed) should be the servants of these two principles. (Padma Purana)
GM: that was pretty much my point in posting the conversation. Literalism and legalism were the hallmark of ISKCON and, in my opinion, were the wrong approach to take. The conversation is meant as an example of that wrong thinking.
Vrajabhumi,
Is there any part of vedic scripture that says women as intelligent?
Though by my practical experience, I see women much more intelligent than me, Specifically personalities like Lord Vishnu, yudhishtira etc.. telling women as less fortunatre/less intelligent?
Lord Siva does respect women more. Especially he gives preference to Parvati over his topmost devotees.
Yet Lord Vishnu/Krishna seems not respecting women at all. Is this sexism more to do with Lord Krishna directly?
Dear devotees,
Here’s a link to a site which includes official BBT policy regarding Srila Swami Prabhupada’s instructions regarding the editing of his books, and some of the so-called myths and controversies put forward by some.
http://www.bbtedit.com/
Vrajabhumi as western born outside varnasrama, doess that mean i am papayoni? all people born outside indian varnasrama is papayoni? thanks
ccc
If you weren’t born into the Vedic system, i.e. a Hindu, then you were considered to have taken a low birth because at that time Vedic knowledge on how to become self-realized was only available in Vedic or Hindu culture. And Vedic society was materially more advanced than others. In modern times that situation no longer exists. Vedic knowledge is available for most people regardless of where you are born. And Hindu society is no longer more advanced than all others. So the classification of papa-yoni is moot for most people in todays world.
thanks vrajabhumi for your time and care to reply all my questions. a new question arises in my mind, actually i am rediscovering gaudiya vaishnavism with your posts; i can truly say you that i became depressed reading Prabhupada’s books and hearing all about his “follow the leader” disciples, i used to visit iskcon and other mathas and in all places is that repressive fanatic mentality with mad megalomaniac gurus, once a friend said my that his guru was sad because all his disciples see him like god, ROFL! they are so hypocrites they settle up all this game and then they come with such magnanimity? that same guru said me it seems that you like suffering and said to the assembled devotees he is frustrated, that pierced my heart, just because he is aware that i will not take initiation with him after several years fawning me, now every time i meet him acts like this, very harsh i just avoid him…
Well my question is what do you think about varnasrama at least varna because i think is very cruel to classify people, why Lord Krsna taught that? is somewhere condemned this in sastras?
kalki das
Varnshrama is not the same as the caste system in India today even though they use similar concepts. The caste system is a corruption of the varnashrama system.
Originally varnashrama wasn’t about classifying people the way the caste system is. It was more about being a guild system. People’s natural propensities were observed and they were guided into a training system which would aid them become a productive member of society.
Varnashrama was based upon aiding a pre-technological society become cohesive and productive materially and spiritually. In a world without modern technology, information, schooling and training can be lost or not used very effectively because of a lack of all that we take for granted today, e.g. mass communication, mass fast transportation, mass schooling, etc.
Varnashrama is obsolete in modern society because we don’t depend on a guild system to protect knowledge and make sure society functions on a productive level.
It is refreshing to see a site where people are honest enough to admit what a creep Prabhupada really was. Most assume one must be a Prabhupada zombie follower (like in the must see movie Dawn of The Dead) and be a member of ISKCON to be Krishna conscious. Not so!
Any thoughts as to the last remark?