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This is a response to a comment from Dharmapad on the About page part 2. He wrote:
Sanyas was part of the general environment of aversion to the opposite sex that was established. Why? Well, if you turn your efforts towards supporting and developing your family life, instead of working and giving everything to the movement, then the preaching effort stops. No more farm lands get bought, no more temple buildings, no more books, et cetera. I imagine that is why.
I don’t think that is why Prabhupada made ISKCON the way it is. Householders did a lot of the temple starting, sannyasis usually just preached, but the business of getting things done was done by many householders. Prabhupada would brag that his sannyasi contemporaries couldn’t get a temple started in London, but a few of his married disciples were able to do so with great success — corralling in the Beatles.
You also wrote:
So family life suffered in spite of any rhetoric, (and I am disappointed that he didn’t give more to his family), and oftentimes gays took sanyas because they wouldn’t be at all sympathetic to family life. Much more of a life subjugated to bureaucratic hierarchy was asked from us that the average person could cope with so, of course, devotees walked off the job in droves.
But I still wish to point out the other side of things … he established and built temples with the money and printed books. Would it all have happened if devotee men and women had mingled freely?
I think your question at the end is answered by your preceding statement. It wasn’t just the management system which caused people to walk away, it was also the social system.
One of Prabhupada’s biggest mistakes was the social system he created, which is wrongly cited as a brilliant innovation by him and his followers. He tried to combine the traditional ashram lifestyle with that of the Indian social lifestyle. Traditional ashrams were single sex for a reason, when you put men and women so closely together you can’t demand that they ignore each other, as Prabhupada did.
Traditional ashrams are either all men or all women, the entire point of ashram life is to live in a setting completely cut off from all interference to a contemplative life. The worst thing you can do is mingle the sexes because the opposite sex is the single biggest distraction for most people (obviously for gay people this isn’t the case).
The result in ISKCON is you have a lot of people who outwardly look like monks, but inwardly are obsessively thinking about the opposite sex all the time. On the one hand they preach that the best life to lead is that of a brahmachari (celibate monk) but then those brahmacharis are constantly surrounded by young women. They also preach that there should be no social interaction between men and women besides husband and wife, and even then the wife should act the part of a servant to her husband and treat him like her guru, and should only have sex to make babies.
What those teachings lead to is a dysfunctional social system, both for married and unmarried people, and we have seen the truth of that fact come to fruition. Most people who join ISKCON don’t remain involved for very long, and divorce is rampant. The reasons are:
1) They tire of the sadhana demanded of them (waking up by 4 a.m. every day)
2) They tire of following the policies of celibacy and no intoxication
3) They tire of working without making money for themselves
4) They tire of the autocratic management system (not feeling free to do as they like)
5) They tire of the judgmental social system which looks down on the above 4 things as well as free friendly social interaction between non-spousal men and women, and husband and wife
If ISKCON or other Gaudiya sanghas really want to be successful in expanding from where they are and have been, they need to change the above things which are holding them back and keeping them stagnant. You don’t need to act and live as they proclaim as an absolute necessity in order to live and advance in spiritual understanding. They insist they are presenting an authentic recreation of Vedic life, but in reality that is not true. In Vedic society men and women weren’t so restricted, women didn’t have to cover themselves (see http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/l-a-woman/ ) celibacy and teetotalism wasn’t the norm, ganja was a major part of their lives (see Vedic use of cannabis) as was alcohol, madhu (mead–honeywine) was consumed regularly.
If ISKCON or similar organizations want to be able to really expand and be successful in keeping people involved they need to radically change what they present and how they expect people to live. Make it more about having a good time and less about being a strictly priggish and puritanical (socially) movement.
In fact Prabhupada may have insisted that sex for any other purpose than procreation and any type of intoxication is harmful and sinfully against God, but he did make an exception for Kshatriyas:
From his purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 4.22.13:
Four kinds of sinful activities — associating with woman for illicit sex, eating meat, intoxication and gambling — are allowed for the kṣatriyas. For political reasons, sometimes they have to take to these sinful activities. Kṣatriyas do not refrain from gambling. One vivid example is the Pāṇḍavas. When the Pāṇḍavas were challenged by the opposite party, Duryodhana, to gamble and risk their kingdom, they could not refrain, and by that gambling they lost their kingdom, and their wife was insulted. Similarly, the kṣatriyas cannot refrain from fighting if challenged by the opposite party.
In Vedic stories you hear often of famous ksatriyas having all sorts of sex, intoxication, gambling, even meat eating! So here we see a double standard, invented by Prabhupada to try and explain why famous Vaishnavas from Vedic history didn’t follow “the 4 regulative principles.” Sex is sinful unless you are a kshatriya? That makes no sense. There is no logical reason that sex for pleasure is sinful. The idea that men lose health, virility and intelligence is not backed up by anyone’s experience. Sex is good for you. Are ISKCON swamis shining standards of health and virility? Not so much. How about intelligence? Is everyone having regular sex stupid from your experience?
The idea that loss of semen for men is unhealthy and causes less intelligence is wrong. There is no way for semen to transform into a substance or travel anywhere in the body which can affect your health or intellect. How can intelligence be helped by semen? What is semen but some chemicals? Chemicals do not aid intelligence, intelligence comes from paramatma from control over our minds and intellect, not from chemicals. Loss of semen doesn’t make you unhealthy either. That’s a myth propagated by the tantric yoga traditions, which seek mythical mystic powers which never actually come, and is a contamination into the bhakti tradition, which is supposed to teach that health is karmic. It’s your destiny to be healthy or unhealthy regardless of what you do. God controls health and intelligence, not chemicals or magic from semen.
And even if that was true, how about tantric sex where you don’t lose semen? Or how about women having to be celibate?
Why did Krishna create the male-female dynamic only to then insist we must resist at all costs what is natural for all of us? How is getting a massage any different than sex? Both are the rubbing of skin, but one is great and the other sinful? It simply makes no sense that God would demand that we give up sex for pleasure when it’s painfully obvious that sex life for us was specifically designed for pleasure, if not then we would be like most animals who are only interested in sex at certain times, i.e. when they are in heat. But we’re not like that, sexual relationships are designed by God to be a major focus of our lives, and even in the ultimate spiritual reality the same thing is true.
The true teachings of Gaudiya Vaisnavism is that strictly following and depending on following the rules and regulations, or vaidhi bhakti, is considered the lower path and strictly for neophytes, not something that has to be followed by everyone for your entire life, even Prabhupada said just that on a handful or very rare occasions where the truth slipped out:
From http://vanisource.org/wiki/Lecture_on_SB_1.2.33_–_Vrndavana,_November_12,_1972
Prabhupada: So you have to uncover. You have to discover. That discovering process is devotional service. The more you are engaged in devotional service, the more your senses become pure or uncovered. And when it is completely uncovered, without any designation, then you are capable to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is apprenticeship. Vaidhī-bhakti, that is apprenticeship. Real bhakti, parā-bhakti, that is rāgānugā-bhakti. This rāgānugā-bhakti, we have to come after surpassing the vaidhī-bhakti. In the material world, if we do not try to make further and further progress in devotional service, if we are simply sticking to the shastric regulation process and do not try to go beyond that… Shastric process also regulation, that is required. Without shastric process you cannot go to that platform. But if we stick to the shastric process only and do not try to improve ourself… The shastric process is kaniṣṭha-adhikāra, lowest stage of devotional service.
From Nectar of Devotion:
Persons desiring to follow in the footsteps of such eternal devotees of the Lord as the Vrsnis and the Vrindavana denizens are called raganuga devotees, which means that they are trying to attain to the perfection of those devotees. These raganuga devotees don’t follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yasoda, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously. There is a gradual development of the ambition to become like a particular devotee, and this activity is called raganuga.
From Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya.8.221
In all, there are sixty-four items listed for the rendering of service unto Krsna, and these are the regulative principles enjoined in the sastras and given by the spiritual master. One has to serve Krsna according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Krsna as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of raganuga-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi. In Vrajabhumi, there are no regulative principles set forth for Krsna’s service. Rather, everything is carried out in spontaneous, natural love for Krsna. There is no question of following the principles of the Vedic system. Such principles are followed within this material world, and as long as one is on the material platform, he has to execute them. However, spontaneous love of Krsna is transcendental. It may seem that the regulative principles are being violated, but the devotee is on the transcendental platform. Such service is called gunatita, or nirguna, for it is not contaminated by the three modes of material nature.
Trying to know the Absolute Truth said:
Hi there,
I’ve been thinking about this topic of illicit sex for quite a while now as I am trying to observe celibacy and now and then have some confusions on this matter.
One thing I can’t quite agree on is that you say that a loss of semen is not detrimental to health. Perhaps it’s not so clear to you because it’s not within your experience as a woman.
Before I tried celibacy I was tired almost all the time, found it hard to think and felt quite weak. Now these issues have lessened significantly upon taking up the practice. However, I do question this observation of myself still, simply for the sake of trying to be as objective as possible.
People who suffer from acne sometimes report that when they lose semen they break out not so long after. This could be connected to the sudden withdrawal of zinc from the body during ejaculation – semen is full of vitamins and nutrients. Also, there is a problem referred to as Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS), which uncannily resembles the symptoms describe in Ayurveda (and Taoism) of semen loss. Plus, there are a number of forums on which people have described their experiences with this problem.
Anyway, that’s about all I have to say right now. Don’t think of this as threatening or angry sounding in any way :). I just thought I’d share my thoughts and would like to hear what other people have to say – especially the males here.
Vrajabhumi said:
Trying to know the Absolute Truth
See these articles:
http://dailyuw.com/2004/3/9/the-effects-of-sexual-activity-on-performance/
http://www.forbes.com/2003/10/08/cz_af_1008health.html
http://www.acne.org/masturbation-acne.html
Some people do have problems with sex, men and women, as you mention it’s called “Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome” which can give them the symptoms you mention experiencing, or worse, up-to including flu-like symptoms. It appears that little is known about it, and it has different symptoms from mild to severe, but it’s believed to be caused by a chemical imbalance in a small percentage of people. It’s clearly an illness, and not typical, normally people feel better after sex.
GM said:
We should try to come closer to Krishna. Coming closer to Krishna is internal and is independent of external circumstances or activities.
Some examples of internal bhav (state) from Gita are;
1) Equanimity — Being happy and satisfied in favorable and unfavorable circumstances…
2) Seeing Krishna in everyone and therefore, treating everyone with love and respect.. This also results in equanimity as both good and bad are Krishna.
3) Seeing self as body.
4) Focusing mind upon Krishna or remember Krishna. Easy way is to see Krishna in everyone. If we see Krishna everyone, we can never forget Him.
and so on…
We cannot pretend to develop above states. We should try to judge our position and from that position go towards these.
For example, our body needs to eat. We can’t live without eating. Similarly, we have physical, mental, intellectual, emotional and sexual needs. If we suppress those needs, then it won’t be healthy. Externally suppressing them does not make us great.
Safe way is to fulfill our needs and enjoy materially while remembering Krishna and seeing Krishna in everyone. Do some meditation, read stories or pastimes of Krishna etc… and also, enjoy the world without hurting other living beings. This is karma-yoga.
As attaining Krishna is independent of external circumstances, one can also attain him by abstaining from sense pleasures. This is generally the path of Jnana. This is more difficult for people like me who are attached to the body and see themselves are product of body. (BG 11.4)
GM said:
In the Gita, control over senses has been considered very essential, in the Disciplines of Knowledge and Action. There is no such stress in the Discipline of Devotion.
(BG 9.3 Sandha Sanjivini – explanation of “sanniyamyendriayagram” in BG 9.3)
Sanjaya said:
About semen, can you please comment on this verse from Bhagavatam 11.6.47:
vata-vasana ya rsayah
sramana urdhra-manthinah
brahmakhyam dhama te yanti
santah sannyasino ‘malah
Naked sages who seriously endeavor in spiritual practice, who have raised their semen upward, who are peaceful and sinless members of the renounced order, attain the spiritual abode called Brahman.
Thanks before.
Vrajabhumi said:
Sanjaya
That verse you quote is from Uddhava, an intimate friend of Krishna from Dwaraka. The context is Uddhava relating the unnecessary hardship people go through to try and attain God consciousness. The previous and subsequent verses are all about how easy it is for bhakti-yogis to attain God.
The previous verse:
Simply by decorating ourselves with the garlands, fragrant oils, clothes and ornaments that You have already enjoyed, and by eating the remnants of Your meals, we, Your servants, will indeed conquer Your illusory energy.
The subsequent verse:
O greatest of mystics, although we are conditioned souls wandering on the path of fruitive work, we will certainly cross beyond the darkness of this material world simply by hearing about Your Lordship in the association of Your devotees. Thus we are always remembering and glorifying the wonderful things You do and the wonderful things You say. We ecstatically recall Your amorous pastimes with Your confidential conjugal devotees and how You boldly smile and move about while engaged in such youthful pastimes. My dear Lord, Your loving pastimes are bewilderingly similar to the activities of ordinary people within this material world.
bhavaprema said:
Vrajabhumi,
I must say…I’ve officially become a fan. Your ability to put verses into a context that spells out a completely different meaning than the BBT perspective is quite impressive. As you know, there has been so many teachings propounded throughout the years in the ISKCON cult that battle the conscience of many sincere practitioners of spirituality. So, since you’ve done the leg work on many topics, could you please add a page to your blog site titled “translations” or “mistranslations”? If you could provide them by subject and site the reference/verse, and break it all down in an orderly fashion, so many would then be able have it all right in front of their face. This would be a great help for anyone struggling within the confines of ISKCON (and it’s affiliates). Basically, my request is to simply compile the cited translation problems you’ve posted within this site already. It’s just really time consuming to jump from blog to blog to look for these. Thanks for bringing back thoughtful discussion amongst the modern Hindu version of Christian fundamentalism.
Vrajabhumi said:
bhavaprema
Thanks for the feedback. That’s a good idea about translations and mistranslations, although quite time consuming, and I’ve only cited a small amount of the larger whole. You can use the search box on this blog and search for “translation” “translated,” etc, and it will pull up every instance of it on my posts. It doesn’t search comments though, for that you need to use some type of site search tool or browser extension, or just go here site:harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com and add keywords.
Sanjaya said:
Very sweet. To the point and sweet. Thank you very much.
bhavaprema said:
Vrajabhumi
Even if you could only start by compiling what’s already on this site, it would be a great beginning. It could be a work in progress. As time goes along, and discussions endure, more will come up that could be added to the ever growing collection…I’m sure others have already done some of this leg work. One thing is that many of the verses that you’ve cited are not referenced (the verse number nor the publisher/edition). That might not be such a task killer though. But a compilation of BBT mistranslated verses, and their incorrect interpretations, would be an undeniable, irrefutable, and unwavering argument in the face of skeptics.
Vrajabhumi said:
bhavaprema
I agree with you on the need for it, if anyone wants to help, go for it.
gm said:
There are tons of mistranslation in Gita itself. Many times Prabhupada’s word to word and translation don’t match.
bhavaprema said:
GM
Obviously the first step would be to locate those verses that can cause people to misunderstand vaisnava siddhanta. Then categorize them by subject matter (i.e. raganuga bhakti, origin of the jiva, guru tattva, etc.). The next, and maybe seemingly unending, step would be to fill in the gaps….maybe to where entire literatures need to be redone. Oh no…not another Gita! The problem is….where to find a truly unbiased and reputable Sanskrit scholar to verify textual inaccuracies. There are some really learned Sanskrit scholars within ISKCON nowadays…the problem is the unbiased part I mentioned. That goes with any translator. They are prone to error (aka human) and will certainly phrase with their own flavor. A peer review is what’s needed…a team. That is a monumental task in itself. However, if we begin with what Vrajabhumi has put up on this site, it would be a big beginning.
gm said:
bhavaprema,
Sanskrit of Gita is simple. I generally read sankrit texts of Gita. As it is simple, you will find lesser mistranslations on Gita. Apart from Prabhupada Gita, you can look at other Gitas. Generally, differences are in interpretation of those verses (not the translation).
I have many translations of Gita. If I see differences, then I read more and more and resolve them. There are many verses which I understood after 10+ years of meditation on them. Ultimately, the guide is Krishna who is within all of us.
You can find one very good translation – http://sadhaksanjivani.com/Mybook1.html
You can download PDF file.
It is also not perfect but quite good. It is quite accurate in terms of sanskrit translation but it may lack modern interpretation of Gita.
gm said:
bhavaprema,
I have 3 Gita which give me word to word translation. So, it is easier to understand it from word to word. Unfortunately, they are in Hindi and I don’t know their English version exists. Anyways, the above sadhak sanjivini website has good English translation.
sinuskurve said:
gm
There are tons of mistranslation in Gita itself. Many times Prabhupada’s word to word and translation don’t match.
What spontaneously comes to my mind is
bhakti – “devotional service”
bhagavan – “the Supreme Personality of Godhead”
and yoga and combinations such as buddhi-yoga rendered as “devotional service” regardless of context.
Unfortunately, I lack the Sanskrit knowledge to say anything qualified about it, but all the other English editions of the Gita and the Bhagavata Purana I use for comparison are not bent on this.
bhavaprema said:
sinuskurve
The difficulty is finding a reputable Gita translation that has the original sanskrit, Roman transliteration, and word-for-word English translation. I have yet to find such an edition. That is why I believe the “as it is” version goes unchallenged to this day in any sort of systematic way. What to do?
bhavaprema said:
So many Gitas…
“So many roads…
to heal my soul…
all I want is one to lead me home.”
(Jerry Garcia/Robert Hunter)
gm said:
sinuskurve,
yoga and combinations such as buddhi-yoga rendered as “devotional service” regardless of context.
bhakti – “devotional service” — Bhakti is independent of action. It is state of self or mind.
You are right. These are the first things which comes to my mind also. This starts with 2nd chapter and these mistranslations continue on.
bhavaprema said:
I stated, “The difficulty is finding a reputable Gita translation that has the original sanskrit, Roman transliteration, and word-for-word English translation. I have yet to find such an edition. That is why I believe the “as it is” version goes unchallenged to this day in any sort of systematic way. What to do?”
I wish to take back that comment. I understand that Gita Press sells more books in India than ISKCON does…and ISKCON sells tons of books in India. I just have not looked into Gita Press publications yet. I will be doing so. However, the problem is that I don’t know Sanskrit grammar. I can pronounce slokas well, and cite mantras well, but I couldn’t tell you if one version was more accurate than the next. I especially don’t even know if certain Sanskrit dictionaries are accurate or not. So I am of no use in deciphering if BBT publications are accurate translations or not. I always assumed they were, but always wondered why the word-for-word would spell out differently than the actual translation. As Vrajabhumi has pointed out, there are many verses that have text in them that is not in the word-for-word. I was always under the impression that the BBT books were accurate. I mean, how could the non-Sanskrit scholar dismiss the “scholarly reviews” printed within the publications themselves? Reviews such as:
“I am most impressed with A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada’s scholarly and authoritative edition of Bhagavad-gita. It is a most valuable work for the scholar as well as the layman and is of great utility as a reference book as well as a textbook. I promptly recommend this edition to my students. It is a beautifully done book.”
Dr. Samuel D. Atkins
Professor of Sanskrit, Princeton University
“…As a successor in direct line from Caitanya, the author of Bhagavad-gita As It Is is entitled, according to Indian custom, to the majestic title of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The great interest that his reading of the Bhagavad-gita holds for us is that it offers us an authorized interpretation according to the principles of the Caitanya tradition.”
Olivier Lacombe
Professor of Sanskrit and Indology, Sorbonne University, Paris
“… It is a deeply felt, powerfully conceived and beautifully explained work. I don’t know whether to praise more this translation of the Bhagavad-gita, its daring method of explanation, or the endless fertility of its ideas. I have never seen any other work on the Gita with such an important voice and style…. It will occupy a significant place in the intellectual and ethical life of modern man for a long time to come.”
Dr. Shaligram Shukla
Professor of Linguistics, Georgetown University
“It has been my great pleasure recently to have read the Srimad-Bhagavatam in the superb edition authorized by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada…. I am sure this monumental work will go far to bring the sublime message of the Bhagavatam to numerous Westerners who otherwise would miss this opportunity. ”
Dr. Alex Wayman
Professor of Sanskrit, Columbia University
“The Srimad-Bhagavatam is extremely useful for all those interested in ancient India, whether their interest be that of the philosopher, the student of religion, the historian, the linguist, the sociologist or the political scientist…. I truly hope that Srila Prabhupada will complete his translation of the entire Bhagavata and continue to translate other eminent Sanskrit works as well. Undoubtedly, this work of Swamiji’s is a great contribution to the troubled human society of today’s world.”
Dr. Sooda L. Bhatt
Professor of Indian Languages, Boston University
“It is axiomatic that no book can be expected entirely to satisfy all its potential readers. Here is one, however, which can be said to come remarkably close to that ideal…. we have here the ideal of what an edition of a Sanskrit text for a Western audience should be.”
Dr. R. E. Asher
Professor of Linguistics, University of Edinburgh
“… For those who have no access to the Sanskrit language, these books convey, in superb manner, the message of the Bhagavatam. In addition to being a scholarly work, it directly reflects the spiritual aspirations of a religious community which has gained considerable popularity in modern America.”
Dr. Alaka Hejib
Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University
“I am most happy to have these handsomely printed volumes which embody the work of so learned and sincere a believer in the message of the Caritamrta. I thank you.”
Dr. Daniel H. H. Ingalls
Chairman Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies
Harvard University
Bhagavad Gita “as it is”
Foreword
by Professor Edward C. Dimock Jr.
“The Bhagavad-gita is the best known and the most frequently translated of Vedic religious texts. Why it should be so appealing to the Western mind is an interesting question. It has drama, for its setting is a scene of two great armies, banners flying, drawn up opposite one another on the field, poised for battle. It has ambiguity, and the fact that Arjuna and his charioteer Krsna are carrying on their dialouge between the two armies suggests the indecision of Arjuna about the basic question; should he enter battle against and kill those who are friends and kinsmen? It has mystery, as Krsna demonstrates to Arjuna His cosmic form. It has a properly complicated view of the ways of the religious life and treats of the paths of knowledge, works, discipline and faith and their inter-relationships, problems that have bothered adherents of other religions in other times and places. The devotion spoken of is a deliberate means of religious satisfaction, not a mere outpouring of poetic emotion. Next to the Bhagavata-purana, a long work from South India, the Gita is the text most frequently quoted in the philosophical writings of the Gaudiya Vaisnava school, the school represented by Swami Bhaktivedanta as the latest in a long succession of teachers. It can be said that this school of Vaisnavism was founded, or revived, by Sri Krsna-Caitanya Mahaprabhu (1486-1533) in Bengal, and that it is currently the strongest single religious force in the eastern part of the Indian subcontinent. The Gaudiya Vaisnava school, for whom Krsna is Himself the Supreme God, and not merely an incarnation of another deity, sees bhakti as an immediate and powerful religious force, consisting of love between man and God. Its discipline consists of devoting all one’s actions to the Deity, and one listens to the stories of Krsna from the sacred texts, one chants Krsna’s name, washes, bathes and dresses the murti of Krsna, feeds Him and takes the remains of food offered to Him, thus absorbing His grace; one does these things and many more, until one has been changed: the devotee has become transformed into one close to Krsna, and sees the Lord face to face.
Swami Bhaktivedanta comments upon the Gita from this point of view, and that is legitimate. More than that, in this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Krsna devotee interprets his own texts. It is the Vedic exegetical tradition, justly famous, in action. This book is then a welcome addition from many points of view. It can serve as a valuable textbook for the college student. It allows us to listen to a skilled interpreter explicating a text which has profound religious meaning. It gives us insights into the original and highly convincing ideas of the Gaudiya Vaisnava school. In providing the Sanskrit in both Devanagari and transliteration, it offers the Sanskrit specialist the opportunity to re-interpret, or debate particular Sanskrit meanings–although I think there will be little disagreement about the quality of the Swami’s Sanskrit scholarship. And finally, for the nonspecialist, there is readable English and a devotional attitude which cannot help but move the sensitive reader. And there are the paintings, which, incredibly as it may seem to those familiar with contemporary Indian religious art, were done by American devotees.
The scholar, the student of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, and the increasing number of Western readers interested in classical Vedic thought have been done a service by Swami Bhaktivedanta. By bringing us a new and living interpretation of a text already known to many, he has increased our understanding manyfold; and arguments for understanding, in these days of estrangement, need not be made.”
Professor Edward C. Dimock, Jr.
Department of South Asian Languages and Civilization
University of Chicago
Vrajabhumi said:
bhavaprema
As Hayagriva Das revealed in his book on the history of early ISKCON, the translations in Prabhupada’s books were plagiarized to some degree or another from various sources. Those reviews have to be taken within context. It wasn’t like those guys read the books thoroughly and then reviewed them, they were happy to have some books, any books, from the Gaudiya tradition, which at that time in the west were unseen. What to speak of getting huge sets of well made books from a practicing guru of the tradition rather than an ordinary academic. The BBT library party went around to universities and gave away sets of books to select professors and then asked for a review right away, of course the professors would praise them in hopes of getting more free books. Plus, they were not experts in Gaudiya philosophy, they were mainly responding to the obvious passion put into the well-made books with the unique transliterations, purports, etc. ISKCON has lived off of those reviews for years, and who knows if they are even accurate, ISKCON is surely not above lying or interpolation.
Then there is the typical “blurb” quid pro quo between authors (the people whose blurb reviews are in the BBT’s books are also authors) and publishers. To get in good with a publisher it’s standard operating procedure to give great blurb reviews for their other authors if they ask, even if you haven’t read the book or like it. If you scratch their back they may scratch yours by publishing you in the future. In the publishing game a blurb review on the book by a well-known reviewer is important for book sales, and there is a quid pro quo expected or hoped for by reviewers. Because the BBT was brand new when they got those reviews, the people giving the blurbs wouldn’t have known they would never be able to be published by the BBT due to it being exclusively for Prabhupada’s books.
The truth is that Prabhupada wasn’t even concerned with the translations, he instructed Hayagriva to plagiarize other sources because he was tired of dealing with it and told him it didn’t matter. Maybe that’s why there are so many mistakes, either they are from doing a rush job and therefore not caring for accuracy, or mistakes from plagiarism, also wanting to push a specific interpretation in order to create a specific mindset, e.g. “devotional service” as a translation for many words or phrases — when really the only legitimate translation of that concept would be from seva bhakti, not bhakti, bhakti-yoga, buddhi-yoga, karma-yoga, yoga-ratam, or what have you, which Prabhupada or his editors consistently mistranslated as “devotional service,” thereby changing what Krishna or the shastra actually says and what bhakti is all about.
bhavaprema said:
Vrajabhumi
So where are the “legitimate translations”? The sastras and writings of the goswamis and acharyas have been translated into English time and time again. Is there a such thing as a “legitimate translation”? If so, where? Maybe Krishna doesn’t want a “legitimate translation” of sastra for the English speaking world. I don’t know. Krishna is certainly mischievous!
Vrajabhumi said:
bhavaprema
A few comments ago you said you were unsure of Sanskrit dictionaries, there are a few online that are excellent and highly regarded. It’s not as if all of Prabhupada’s writings are useless, or those of other gurus with similar mistakes and agendas (to gain slavish followers). There are books translated by scholars and devotees, gurus and academics, whatever mistakes are in them will be revealed to you if and when that is your destiny. Paramatma is in control, there are no accidents in our lives. You are not alone fighting an uphill battle. What you will need to understand you will understand when you are meant to understand.
bhavaprema said:
Vrajabhumi
Obviously the BBT publications are not anywhere near “worthless”. I guess if they are not perfect, and no one else’s is, there’s no problem because there then exists no standard for comparison.
“There are books translated by scholars and devotees, gurus and academics, whatever mistakes are in them will be revealed to you if and when that is your destiny. Paramatma is in control, there are no accidents in our lives. You are not alone fighting an uphill battle. What you will need to understand you will understand when you are meant to understand.”
Thanks for bringing the destiny/free will, or lack thereof, topic into this discussion. It’s an important one that, I believe shapes the very foundation of GV. In sastra, Krishna mentions many times that He’s the controller, and everything occuring is sanctioned by Him, directly or indirectly, purusa or prakrti, bhagavan or paramatma. I just have not been able to grasp the logic behind your conclusion on this topic. Maybe I should not even endeavor to understand if everything is predestined. Maybe I shouldn’t endeavor to weed through the translations/mistranslations if everything is predestined. Why endeavor for anything? Why even consider the instructions within sastra when one’s life is already predestined? One cannot even consider unless Krsna grants one the ability….that I understand. However, Krsna presents the options one is given in life and gives one the ability to decide/choose. Obviously one’s desires may dictate any decision, or one’s intelligence that comes from Krsna. However, everyone has the ability to disregard intelligence, as we have seen from some of the commentators on this blog and others. If we have no unique ability to choose/decide amongst the options we are presented in life, then there is no need for this blog or any discussion for that matter. I guess the default answer is…Krsna is in control, right? That can be used as the ultimate trump card, however it is also inconceivable. It seems if my understanding of your position on the topic is correct, then we are like robots devoid of any sense of individuality, without ANY sense of personal freedom. That is a conclusion very few can grasp or accept.
bhavaprema said:
Vrajabhumi
By the way, I want to thank you for all the time, energy, and dedication you put into these discussions…truly remarkable if your alias is a single person. Krsna says He’s the ability in man…no mention of the ability in woman…but that’s probably a mistranslation too. That was a joke by the way :)
Vrajabhumi said:
bhavaprema
I understand that it can be confusing to accept Krishna’s control over our day to day reality when it appears we are in control, but that is just due to identification with the mind as our-self or under our control. Nevertheless, our lack of any control is just the way it is, it is absolute reality, and the most important thing to understand in becoming fully self-realized. Just because we have no real free will and our lives are pre-destined, and controlled by Krishna, that doesn’t mean we have no individuality, or that we don’t need to learn things. We still exist and experience life regardless of who or what is in ultimate control.
An analogy would be an employee of a corporation who is doing the will of his boss and by extension the CEO. In order to get paid and do his job to satisfaction he needs to understand the hierarchy of the company. He needs to know what is required of him. He also needs to know what the purpose of his job is and what the CEO desires of the employees if he wants to advance to higher paid positions. Eventually he may advance and become a board member, he then will get to socialize as an equal with the CEO. He may never become the CEO, but that doesn’t negate his becoming more and more experienced and better at his job, and thereby attaining a very high position in the corporation and becoming a close social friend with the CEO.
By our nature we are controlled by God, it simply cannot be any other way because of the requirements of being a fully independent being, i.e. it takes a god-like being to be independent — and there is only one god-like being in existence. Not by choice, it’s just that to have the ability to think and act by your own power takes an immense about of ability that only God possesses. God creates the illusion that we are independent because it is too difficult to deal with the absolute truth until you advance in self-realization, which is the fate of everyone. If God could create other beings with similar powers to God that would be nice, but it simply isn’t possible. We are the best that God has to work with.
Does that mean that everything we do in seeking self-realization is pointless since our fate is decided? Does that mean that there is no need for any endeavor, that we may as well just sit and wait for God to do everything for us? It simply isn’t possible. We do as God directs, end of story.
We need to understand our purpose to God. We provide association, intimate relationships, there are no other Gods, just the one. God has desires like we do for love, affection, and intimacy with friends/lovers. That is the nature of intelligent beings. Even though we have no independence from God, or power to act on our own, because we are the best that God can relate with, our purpose until attaining self-realization or prema-bhakti (a direct intimate physical relationship with God) is to evolve till we have the capability to live in absolute truth with God, to live in knowledge of and in the highest type of relationship.
That takes a lot of learning and experience for us. Even though we have no real free will to do as we please, and our fate is predestined, we still need to learn and evolve through various teachings and experiences till we reach the level of full self-realization and god-consciousness. That perfected level of self-realization is important to God in order to enjoy a real relationship with us. For an example, imagine if you were the writer-director of an animated film, and that all your actors/characters were in truth real people, living cartoons, but were so immersed in their roles that they didn’t realize they were acting out a script or even that there was a director in total control. Along with that, there was no one else in existence except you and the people in your animated film. What would you do if you wanted a relationship that involved the characters understanding the truth, but at the same time they were completely incapable of living outside your control?
That is God’s real situation with us. All we experience until fully self-realized is a script designed to elevate us through learning and experience to be able to eventually be able to fully understand the truth of reality and then enjoy a real relationship with God. Otherwise, for God, it’s like having a relationship with a character in a script rather than a real person if we don’t understand that God is in total control of everything we experience. If we think we or anyone else is in control of anything, then we are in maha-maya, we are fooled by the great illusion of this world, i.e. that anything is independent from God’s total control at all times. Once we know and understand the truth, God uses everything in our environment to directly relate with us and entertain us through that knowledge of God’s control. The world becomes transformed into a stage for God to relate with and entertain us through everything and everyone you experience. We need to fully understand the true nature of reality in order for God to truly enjoy having a relationship with us, we need to understand the truth to live in the truth with God. That isn’t easy for us to do at first, it takes a long time and lots of experience and learning, but the reward is eternal bliss as God’s most intimate lover and friend.
I’ve written quite a bit on stuff like this, here is some:
http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2008/09/01/things-they-would-not-teach-me-of-in-college/
http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/see-me-feel-me/
http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/through-the-looking-glass/
http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2010/11/07/here-there-and-everywhere/
http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/embryonic-journey/
bhavaprema said:
Vrajabhumi
“An analogy would be an employee of a corporation who is doing the will of his boss and by extension the CEO. In order to get paid and do his job to satisfaction he needs to understand the hierarchy of the company. He needs to know what is required of him. He also needs to know what the purpose of his job is and what the CEO desires of the employees if he wants to advance to higher paid positions. Eventually he may advance and become a board member, he then will get to socialize as an equal with the CEO. He may never become the CEO, but that doesn’t negate his becoming more and more experienced and better at his job, and thereby attaining a very high position in the corporation and becoming a close social friend with the CEO.”
This is true. However, the CEO (bhagavan) may expand himself (prakrti and paramatma) in various direct or indirect ways to control and supervise the employee. He may implement policies & procedures, guidance documents, and benchmarks for the employee to abide by. He may require the completion of some sort of time card to make sure the employee shows up for work so he can be rewarded with a paycheck for his work. He may implement various types of oversight (i.e. give the employee a supervisor, monitor his internet usage, require work progress reports, etc…) all to indirectly monitor as to whether the employee is doing his job correctly. If the employee decides he doesn’t like the job, he may decide to leave at his own discretion. If the employee is doing an exceptional job, the CEO may personally come to the employee to congratulate and reward him. The CEO may even give his employee a higher position within the company to where the employee gets to have more intimate contact with the CEO.
The point is that the CEO is the ultimate controller and decider of the overall company. The employee may wish to leave the company, or stay and abide by the CEO’s requirements to reap his paycheck reward and such…maybe even a bonus! The CEO may wish to directly run the company and do the work himself, or indirectly have the day-to-day activities perform by lower level management.
If the employee has no choice as to how his work is performed, or the ability to discover new ways as to how to improve the company, then he might as well be replaced by automated computers, robots, and other machines that can’t argue with the CEO, talk back to him, or do anything independent of the CEO…whether it’s in the employee’s best interest or not.
If fate is predestined and we have absolutely no say in the matter as to whether we even want to be with Krsna or not, that we are simply like wind up toys, then there is no need for anything else to be realized or even considered. Most of sastra would simply be filler. Actually, self-realization would be rather simple…because we do not need to do anything, because we cannot do anything.
Maybe our American heros, like Bob dylan and co. were/are much more self realized than we think………
Vrajabhumi said:
bhavaprema
I tried to show you how reality has a way of intruding upon what we would like and setting the guidelines. The employee analogy was only about telling a metaphor about bhakti-yoga, you took it a bit further than it was intended for, i.e. a discussion on free will and possible desires of God. You wrote:
The employee (jiva) can’t be replaced simply because the job he is doing (to provide the stockholders with profits) in our case is in being a real person. The profit or what God gets from us rather than a robot is — us. Our “job” is to provide companionship to God that God can enjoy. So it is moot to propose the above.
You also wrote:
Self-realization is simple, in the same way that making a chapati is simple. It looks simple to make, and it is simple to make once you learn how and become proficient. What isn’t so simple is getting there, e.g. growing wheat. To grow wheat you need to create a planet like earth, you also need to create wheat, then you need to grow it and mill it. What appears simple (making dough and rolling a chapati, then putting it on a grill) and is simple once you gain all necessary ingredients and skills, shouldn’t be misunderstood as being simple in essence. Why does it take so long for a newborn baby to advance to being able to speak and act rationally and intelligently? It seems so simple for us.
Learning what I’ve been writing is only part of becoming self-realized, just like learning to relate to people socially as an adult is only part of growing up — it’s the most important part, but there’s more, e.g. maturing by gaining knowledge and experience. The shastra is full of repetition, not filler. It tells the same basic things in many varied ways, through direct logical analysis, through metaphoric stories, through revelation directly from God, etc. The purpose is to teach people on various levels of spiritual advancement, to give each person on whatever level they are on something to relate to and learn from.
It is pointless to try and make an argument about free will saying “since it would be better to have free will, therefore we must have it.” It’s like arguing against having to breath all the time: “It would be better to not have to breath, we could swim underwater for long periods without needing all sorts of gear. So therefore I can’t accept that we need to breath.” We simply don’t have the ability to think and act under our own power and control. It seems so simple for us to think and act, but what is actually going on to create that illusion is a vast and powerful intelligence, much more so than we will ever be, without which we would simply be unable to do anything because it takes a being like God to do what we think we control, i.e. moving our bodies, and thinking and acting. I try to explain that reality in this post:
http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2008/09/01/things-they-would-not-teach-me-of-in-college/
There I explain through analysis how our memory system is the basis for our intellect and thought process, how we have no ability to provide our-self with memory, nor the ability to create thought by our-self, nor the ability to move our bodies under our own control. It appears that we are doing everything, but that is because it is more comfortable for us to believe that, especially until you are ready for self-realization. The truth is:
From Krishna, Bhagavad Gita
In the 11th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna says:
Sanjaya said:
Whoaaa… :-O
I need to deeply study this!
Sanjaya said:
What type of behavior/actions/activities will possibly seen in a truly self-realized person?
Vrajabhumi said:
Sanjaya
There is no set standard, different people may do different things and act in different ways, it all depends on what Krishna wants them to do or wants you to see. One thing they all have in common though is being able to explain the truth, because they live it. That doesn’t mean they are the only ones able to explain the truth, anyone can repeat it — but if someone speaks something contradictory to the truth about self-realization or God while claiming it is the truth, then you can understand they are not fully self-realized.
bhavaprema said:
Vrajabhumi
After much thought and further deliberation, It is true, nothing in life occurs by chance or accident, but by divine providence. We truly have no control over anything but to desire. Even that ability is given to us, so really there is no actual control. We are simply conscious observers of what we are exposed to, with the ability to see and understand varying degrees of truth…an evolution of experiencing truth.
You said: “The shastra is full of repetition, not filler. It tells the same basic things in many varied ways, through direct logical analysis, through metaphoric stories, through revelation directly from God, etc. The purpose is to teach people on various levels of spiritual advancement, to give each person on whatever level they are on something to relate to and learn from.”
What you said is truth. I now see that the true understanding of shastra is the ability to see the correct context of the truth as explained for various degrees of spiritual realization. This ability comes from experience and progressive realization…just as you’ve verified.
Being previously convinced in the notion that jivas have “minute independence”, there still remained the ability to become frustrated and overcome with anxiety. When being controlled to experience the following BBT translations, one can be brought under the notion of thinking one has the ability to, and needs to control the mind in a certain way for attainment of self-realization.
BG 6.6: “For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest enemy.”
BG 6.7: “For one who has conquered the mind, the Supersoul is already reached, for he has attained tranquillity. To such a man happiness and distress, heat and cold, honor and dishonor are all the same.”
BG 6.15: “Thus practicing constant control of the body, mind and activities, the mystic transcendentalist, his mind regulated, attains to the kingdom of God [or the abode of Kṛṣṇa] by cessation of material existence.”
BG 6.25: “Gradually, step by step, one should become situated in trance by means of intelligence sustained by full conviction, and thus the mind should be fixed on the self alone and should think of nothing else.”
BG 6.26: “From wherever the mind wanders due to its flickering and unsteady nature, one must certainly withdraw it and bring it back under the control of the self.”
BG 6.27: “The yogī whose mind is fixed on Me verily attains the highest perfection of transcendental happiness. He is beyond the mode of passion, he realizes his qualitative identity with the Supreme, and thus he is freed from all reactions to past deeds.”
BG 6.28: “Thus the self-controlled yogī, constantly engaged in yoga practice, becomes free from all material contamination and achieves the highest stage of perfect happiness in transcendental loving service to the Lord.”
The yogi actually must release the misconception of control over his/her own mind and destiny, and realize it is under the control of the supreme self (paramatma). Thus being conscious of Krsna as the cause of all causes, the ishvara (owner and controller) of everything animate and inanimate, Krsna begins to gradually reveal Himself in more intimate ways to the yogi. What an exciting ride! What a long strange trip it’s been!
Thank you for being a part of everything I need to experience.
“I’ve seen my light come shining
From the west unto the east
Any day now, any day now
I shall be released”
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Gm said:
The concept of free will and God’s control over us is confusing because we are trying to understand in the context of illusion. We are not this body and we accept ourselves as body. Our self is completely beyond the matter. We accept this world as real even though we are completely beyond it. Actually, it is considered as a dream.
When you accept this world as real and yourself as body, then you have limited control over the matter. Still, your control is minute and it appears that God is controlling the world. In this illusory realm, confusion arises about free will and control.
Higher level is to see that God has full control over everything and the self is dependent on God which is called saranagati in bhakti. In jnana, it is accepted that prakriti does all the action and still, self has no control. Both are more closer to the Absolute Truth.
From Absolute Perspective, self has nothing to do with matter (triguna-atita). The control observed is illusory or a dream. Self is beyond matter and it is established in realm beyond matter. Some people call that realm brahman or paramatma or bhagavan. But ulitimately, it is everything. At this level, self is absorbed within or into realm beyond matter and it has nothing to do with matter. Krishna describes this state as equanimity as you can be truly equanimous when you are beyond matter. He call this as His abode (mad dhamam) etc..
Searching for the Absolute Truth said:
Dear Vrajabhumi,
Firstly, I’d like to say that I’m not a member of ISKCON, although I go to their temples and events sometimes. I’m just very interested in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition and yogic paths in general. Basically, I’m ardently search for the absolute truth. Anyway…
I’ve thought a lot more about the notion that sex is healthy and I’ve realised a few things that I’d like you to consider.
You say that the idea of semen loss being unhealthy is perhaps rooted in tantric sects and has contaminated the Gaudiya tradition. However,it is said in ayurveda that the conservation of semen (shukra) is important; too much loss depletes ojas, the “glue” that holds together the mind and body. Dhanvantari, the incarnation of the Supreme Lord who brought medical knowledge, said:
“This Veerya (seminal energy) is verily Atman. The secret of health lies in preservation of this vital force. He who wastes this energy cannot have physical, mental, moral and spiritual development.”
You also wrote: “There is no way for semen to transform into a substance or travel anywhere in the body which can affect your health or intellect.” In yogic literatures there are mentions of “urdvarethas,” people who have transmuted their sexual energies and have upwards flowing semen. The process is not completely gross physical, so it’s no surprise that there are no indications of its possibility at that level. While I am no yoga/ayurveda master, I remember reading that semen is extracted progressively from the tissues of the body. The celibate yogi takes control of the formation of the semen at the subtle level by controlling the mind, so all the prana extracted from the air, food, etc, is not used up in the creation of semen. This is what gives him great energy.
I’d like to type/research more, but it’s getting late here now. I thought I’d share this with you. Once again, I’m no expert, but I’ve observed some benefits while practicing chastity so I find it hard to dismiss the practice altogether.
Gauranga :-)
Vrajabhumi said:
Searching for the Absolute Truth
Ayurveda is the name of an ancient Indian medical system, it’s not a book. Where is that quote you gave from? I searched google and it only appears in something written by Swami Sivananda, no source is given by him.
Ayurveda is not shastra, it’s an Indian tradition that was built upon over time. What may have originally had some divine provenance is no longer the case due to constant addition from a huge variety of people over thousands of years. Easy enough to tell that it’s mostly not of divine revelation by following their prescriptions — because hardly any actually work as promised. The idea that the “mind and soul are held together” by supersemen glue™ loses any meaning when we observe Hugh Hefner or professional athletes — both of whom do just fine and must lose pretty much all of theirs. Just look at ISKCON sannyasis and compare them to other people their age. Do they seem particularly healthier or more intelligent to you than most everyone else?
Like I said in my post above:
That is what you’re supposed to learn from Vedanta.
Searching for the Absolute Truth said:
I’d like to firstly say that I’m not trying to be antagonistic or anything. I’m just trying to come to a reasonable conclusion about this matter. I may end up marrying some day and I certainly need to know how to live healthily.
I got the quote from Swami Sivananda’s book.
You write:
“The idea that the “mind and soul are held together” by supersemen glue™ loses any meaning when we observe Hugh Hefner or professional athletes — both of whom do just fine and must lose pretty much all of theirs.”
One could counterargue that not everyone has the same kind of body. Hugh Hefner and professional athletes may be of a certain type that allows for more regular losses. Indeed, it is said in the ayurvedic tradition that people with the kapha constitution are more resilient. Some people are (naturally) physically stronger than others, so perhaps the same kind of analogy exists in this regard.
You also write:
“Just look at ISKCON sannyasis and compare them to other people their age.”
Judging by some of the falldowns that have happened in ISKCON, would it not be correct to say that some devotees have not been observing celibacy properly? (I mean no offense towards any devotees in saying this. I know there are some very sincere people in ISKCON). Also, there may be other factors affecting the health and intelligence of ISKCON sannyasis, such as a lack of sleep.
There are also a number of ayurvedic authors and practitioners such as Robert Svoboda (first Westerner to graduate from and Indian ayurvedic college) and David Frawley (who said that “Ojas is the sap of our life energy”).
I will end this with a quote from http://ayurvedaelements.com/articlesexspiritualityayurveda.php.
“The pure reproductive fluids (shukra) create the subtle essence called ojas. Ojas is not a physical substance but is more like the essential energy of the immune system. When ojas is strong and pure in our being we have a strong aura, bright eyes, strong immunity and mental clarity. Excess loss of sperm causes low immune function, weak digestion, lassitude and mental dullness.
Unrestricted sexual activity is regarded in Ayurveda as one of the acts most detrimental to health not because sex in itself is bad, but because it strains the nerves, exhausts the bodily tissues, increases vata (air and ether), thus creating dryness and irritability in a person and decreases ojas, the essence of immunity and vitality.
Eminent Ayurvedic physician Professor Subash Ranade shares a view held by Hippocrates when he stated: “Individuals who do not regulate their sexual impulses are more prone to loss of strength, weak immune function, and various diseases owing to depletion of vitality. Those who regulate their sexual energy will have increased memory, power, intelligence, health, and longevity”.”
Vrajabhumi said:
Searching for the Absolute Truth
The original reason for brahmacharya was to take time off from all ordinary activities in order to devote yourself to sadhana, that was the benefit of brahmachrya, not that your health or intellect will increase if you don’t have sex. We really need to understand how the intellect works and how our bodies work under the complete and total control of paramatma according to our destiny. Every atom, every molecule, every element, every cell in our body is a living thing. They’re all manifestations of God’s energy [which is super-conscious energy], design, and moment to moment in-habitation and total control. Nothing happens by accident or by any other cause other than God’s will, including your state of health.
Brahma Samhita 5.1
isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
Krishna is the actual controlling principle, Ishvara, therefore he is the actual cause of all causes.
Every cell in your body is governed over and inhabited by God, that’s why cells have abilities like conscious beings/machines/factories, roaming around, doing tasks: reading-writing-translating-storing super complex digital code (dna, rna), building things, repairing things, growing things, regulating things, and on and on. It’s really quite amazing, and none of it happens by chance, they’re all manifestations of God’s design talent, power and intimate presence and control. Cells control your health, God controls cells. That is absolute truth. Nothing can change your destiny in any way, including your health, by one iota. God is in complete control of you and every cell in our bodies, and your destiny or karma is a foregone conclusion.
As far as intelligence goes, see these posts:
http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/through-the-looking-glass/
http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2008/09/01/things-they-would-not-teach-me-of-in-college/
bhavaprema said:
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=10195
Seeker said:
Vrajabhumi,
I saw this article in Sun – http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-12/editorials8144.htm. I would be glad to hear more from you in this regard.
Few excerpts and my comments below:
All these folks make bhakti sound like some sort of elite club with the acaryas holding the passes to heaven. Whether it is GBC, Rocana dasa, or whoever – it is all about “hear me out and only then you are serving Srila Prabhupada”. There is already a fertile ground of beguiled followers who think that serving Srila Prabhupada and accepting in toto whatever he said is the only way to please Krishna. If it is some other Gaudiya math or any other organization, then yet again, the only difference is the replacement of Swami Maharaj with Narayana Maharaj, Sridhar Maharaj, Tripurari Swami, etc..,
Before attaining self-realization, one needs to realize the basic fact that it is a state of being and not having – it is not something that someone hands over to you like a car, house, etc.., by “showering” their mercy on you based on menial service or how much money you collected or gave, etc.., Prabhupada used Krishna’s name to attract people and placed himself in-between and now all that these folks need to do is put themselves in front of Prabhupada as the sold-out follower and the rest will be automatically taken care. And that’s the parampara system.lol…
Going by the same token, if Rocana dasa had taken the time or dedicated himself to understanding the actual teachings of GV, then he should have been able to see as clear as daylight how Prabhupada had twisted the teachings and conned people into thinking that he was actually on talking terms with Krishna and thereby to blindly follow whatever he said despite condemning blind following. The irony is that he pities the insincere disciples (from his perspective) of Prabhavishnu dasa without realizing that his understanding of GV is also equally flawed proven by the fact that he considers Prabhupada and his teachings as infallible.
One thing that I never understood during my tenure in ISKCON was the wooh-aah surrounding this concept of Sampradaya acarya. I always had a simple understanding that from a general perspective, Gaudiya Vaishnavism has a beginning since the advent of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Gosvamis put together the tenets for the same. The foundations were laid down by them and so I never understand what it even means to call Prabhupada as the sampradaya acarya (for example, I can understand if Ramanujacarya is called as the sampradaya acarya of Sri Vaishnavism). He does mean that he is the next after Bhaktisiddhanta but even then, how does it make Prabhupada anything like a sampradaya acarya or why does he feel that GBC has not recognized Prabhupada as such? I don’t think anyone in ISKCON, including GBC, contest the fact that Prabupada is the successor or the acarya after his guru. Also, I could not follow the cribbing about “GBC has not assigned a proper philosophical designation”.
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