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This is a response to John’s comment on the About page part 2.
He was saying how japa meditation is a method of brainwashing, that it shouldn’t be taught to beginners in bhakti-yoga, and that it is what causes people to believe in the literalness of the fantastic stories in Hindu scriptures — it causes weak minds which are then easy prey for otherwise unbelievable indoctrination. Because of that, he claims that the reason Prabhupada demanded 16 rounds of japa as a prerequisite for membership in ISKCON, and as a prerequisite to be seen as a sincere spiritual seeker, was simply to make their minds susceptible to being controlled by him and his teachings. The following is my response:
Countless Hindus believe in the literalness of the shastras, yet they don’t chant 16 rounds of japa every day. People believe religious mythology because God inspires them to do so. And because it’s more interesting or exciting than what they believed in before, they want to believe. In the famous American TV series about alternate realities called The X-Files, the lead character famously had a poster behind his desk with a UFO flying above some trees with the words I WANT TO BELIEVE, which famously became the slogan for the series and for people who believed in paranormal realities, along with The Truth Is Out There.
The poster behind Agent Mulder's desk from The X-Files
Different mythologies present a variety of magical or fantastic weltanschauungs, or world-views, where maybe magical beings (angels, demigods, wizards, ghosts, aliens, etc.) and events are seen as a real part of the world. Because that world-view is colorful and romantic, many people readily believe in it because it’s more fun to live in that reality than the reality they believed in before, or in the alternative of a mundane world.
It’s different for people who are born into that belief system, still, they didn’t require japa to gain their belief. Before modern times, before the 19th century, the entire world had a magical world-view, magical realism was considered the normal outlook on life — a scientific world-view was seen as abnormal.
That has turned around, nowadays the magical world-view is seen as abnormal by most people. Still, amongst Hindus and Buddhists many people retain the magical world-view of their ancestors and scriptures. I see it is a plus, it’s more fun to live in a world of magical beings than to see nothing but nature and science.
Chanting japa doesn’t make you susceptible to being brainwashed into believing in the literalness of the scriptures, and it doesn’t keep you believing in magical realism after having been brainwashed. How could it do that? It can aid in that, but not in the way you suggest. It’s not the repetition creating a weak mind, it’s the reciprocation from the chanting, from God. By chanting God reciprocates with you in a mystical way, or not, it depends on the individual and their destiny. By that reciprocation you gain faith in the source of that practice — the scriptures, and tend to believe what they teach.
The repetition of japa is also a meditation, it can calm the mind by taking away focus from agitation, and it aids in taming your concentration. By forcing your mind to focus on a few words over and over you develop concentration skills you previously did not have, it’s like exercise for your mind. You need strong powers of concentration in order to study and understand Vedanta and Bhagavat philosophy.
I believe there can be too much japa, too much can tire your mind out and leave it too tired to study shastra. Prabhupada’s insistence on 16 rounds for membership in ISKCON was a mistake on his part. It put too much pressure on people, turning japa from a relaxing meditation time, into a job, a chore to get done, which they have to do, or else be expelled. That makes it something unpleasant. No one likes unpleasant tasks they are forced to do. Many or most ISKCON trained bhaktas end up with a subconscious and even conscious dislike of japa.
I don’t think Prabhupada insisted on 16 rounds a day because he was trying to brainwash people into believing fantastic stories, I think he sincerely believed that people needed that much japa or else they would lose a taste for “devotional service” to him and ISKCON. He believed that it was the number of rounds of japa that was necessary in order for people to retain faith in Krishna.
I believe that he was mistaken whatever were his reasons. You should never demand as much japa as he did, or really make any demand for a set amount of meditation as a prerequisite for being considered a disciple, or worthy of being seen as a sincere and spiritual person. In ISKCON if you don’t chant 16 rounds of japa a day you are seen as spiritually fallen, as if something is wrong with you, as if you are not worthy of associating with them as one of them. And unless you are in a secure leadership position or a brand new beginner, they will kick you out. Or at least they used to.
That type of demand is one of the many reasons ISKCON never seems to grow past a certain size, and why people are always leaving. You cannot run a spiritual society successfully by putting such a demand on people, not only does it make people dislike japa meditation, but it’s so difficult that people develop such a dislike, subconsciously or consciously, that they end up leaving, and not wanting to associate anymore after they leave. Along with the sexual demands Prabhupada made, his japa policy is one of the big mistakes which keeps the movement small. You can point to India and say it isn’t small there, but really, if you think about it, in a land of almost a billion Hindus, where increasing membership should be like shooting fish in a barrel, how many people actually are closely involved with ISKCON or the Gaudiya maths? And how long do they stay involved? A relatively small amount.
And for John’s claim that japa shouldn’t be taught to beginners — japa isn’t the invention of ISKCON or the Gaudiya Math, it’s a meditation method taught in shastra, and it’s been taught as part of the beginning stage of yoga practice forever, by all branches of Hinduism, be they Vedantists, Shaivites, Tantrics or others.
John said:
Wraja,
I want to ask if you know Japa in the form of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra is a sacrifice bigger than all other sacrifices in the Vedic literatures. Why didn’t ACBS or the Guadiya math explain why chanting this mantra is and how it is a big sacrifice? Remember, it is said: in this age of kali there is no other way, no other way etc. That should tell you what the Maha mantra is all about. That quotation from the brhad naradiya purana is only saying a strong disease needs a strong cure. That also should let you know that the maha mantra is something more serious than what most followers of ACBS know about.
Its a sixteen word mantra arranged in a special way where you go back and forth.
You are supposed to listen attentively while you chant.
This mantra is completely different from any other mantra. i believe those who called it maha mantra knew what they were doing. In Mind control and brainwashing, someone else or something repeats the sound vibration but here you are doing it to yourself by yourself that is why it is a sacrifice. You are actually sacrificing your freedom of mind.
You will believe that one of the signs that a devotee will soon leave is that he gradually stops chanting or reduces the rounds he chants. When that happens the devotee begins to have a free mind and starts thinking deeply about his involment with “all this stuff”. So what ACBS wants is that you must make them chant or they will leave.
For the Indian, believing the puranas is from childhood but a bigger number of the Hindhus know that the puranas are simply some mythological texts. For Westerners to believe such awful stuff that is soooooo glaringly false, he must be chanting a lot of rounds.
Chanting is self sacrifice. You are forcing your mind to focus on krishna. this is different from total surrender based on conviction. It is believed that in this age that is not possible so it must be done by force. The truth is that this is very dangerous. The mind is more delicate than the body. Injuries to the mind are more difficult to heal than those of the body.
I will advice everyone to understand very well why Chanting the Maha mantra is a sacrifice before chanting.
Vrajabhumi said:
John
I think you don’t understand a lot of things about what ISKCON teaches about chanting if you make those claims.
Malati dasi said:
Vraja, you said: Chanting japa doesn’t make you susceptible to being brainwashed into believing in the literalness of the scriptures, and it doesn’t keep you believing in magical realism after having been brainwashed. How could it do that? It can aid in that, but not in the way you suggest. It’s not the repetition creating a weak mind, it’s the reciprocation from the chanting, from God. By chanting God reciprocates with you in a mystical way, or not, it depends on the individual and their destiny. By that reciprocation you gain faith in the source of that practice — the scriptures, and tend to believe what they teach.
I don’t think it’s right to correlate your increase in faith as a result of the supposed God’s reciprocation with you as a result of your japa chanting.
Didn’t Chaitanya Mahaprabhu say the following in his siksastakam:
Krishna may embrace this girl, who is devoted to His lotus feet or He may break her heart by not showing Himsef to her. He can do whatever He wants, He is after all, a womanizer. Still, He is the Lord of my life.
I think we should not be so overly focused on getting a physical, literal result from our chanting. It’s like focusing on wanting to experience a miracle. And that attitude might cause us to lose our sense of reason and common sense.
For example, many Indian and westerner devotees say that they witnessed the Radhakunda water changing colour and turning into milk. I replied to the devotee who told me that she witnessed it turning into milk, that “I believe it’s very plausible that the water can change colour as you saw it. But I will not believe that the water literally turned into milk. For me to believe it, I need to have the water chemically analysed.”
So I ask is my faith any less because I do not believe that the Radhakunda (pond) water turned into milk?
My faith in Krishna is never dependent on miracles, or feeling that Krishna has reciprocated with me, although I sometimes think that he has .
I realize I may never experience the ecstatic feeling as described in the literature of the Goswamis unti I leave this planet, still my faith in Krishna will never leave me until my last breath. I know my level of faith, it’s been with me since I was 6 years old, when I first asked my questions about God.
I do not think that your faith will cause you to take the shastras literally.
I, for one, do not take the shastras literally. For me, it’s just a language of God by which he communicates his grandeur, nature and essence, to us here in this part of the universe.
There may even be another way by which he communicates with other jivas in the other parts of the multiverse.
People take the shastras literally for all sorts of reasons.
Vrajabhumi said:
Malati
Whether or not you need reciprocation, most people do in order that they gain faith in Krishna. That is most commonly done through chanting, in fact that is one of the main purposes of chanting, i.e Krishna is said to be non-different from his name, by chanting people can mystically feel God’s presence, by that they gain faith in Krishna.
Also, that verse from the Siksastakam you mention is specifically about the mood of a girl feeling separation from her lover, it’s about rasa, emotions, specifically the rasa of a ragatmika bhakta — people already in a personal physical relationship with God in the highest reality — it has nothing to do with what the mood of a neophyte is supposed to be or can be.
The Siksastakam shows a progression of the moods of a bhakta on the progression from neophyte to the highest reality, from vaidhi to raganuga to ragatmika. It starts with glorifying vaidhi sadhana, how chanting can cleanse the heart but that he has no attraction to Krishna, that one should be humble etc. Then it moves into the beginning of raganuga where he says that he doesn’t want anything but to serve Krishna, he just wants to be at Krishna’s feet, he wants to taste the ecstasy of love for Krishna. Then it moves into ragatmika where he is lamenting in separation like a girl separated from her lover, going to the point of saying she will do anything, that she knows Krishna fools around with other girls but she doesn’t care anymore, please just come back.
AM said:
To John and Vraja,
Both of you are bringing a lot of interesting points on Japa chanting.. I am sided with Vraja but recognize that John is not really wrong in making such statements such as japa being a brainwhasher method. I grew up in Iskcon and have seen all dimensions of this conversation in real life. I have seen how a disbeliever who crossed path with devotees suddenly became a devotee himself rejecting all kinds of sense gratification by the process of chanting. And how a sleepy devotee who stopped caring for the rounds and little by little stopped chanting became engrossed in complete sense gratification.
It was in Alachua where spent the best time of my life, chanting the best rounds that I had ever chanted before. There with so many enthusiastic and sincere devotees I was in heaven. I realized then that chanting was a right process and that my faith had a real foundation. I had a glimpse of the highest “height” one hoped to attend in the process of chanting so I developed intense faith towards this chanting. Pass forward years later and I am in a household life with no temple around and with a family to raise. Did I mention I grew up in Iskcon.. I have had to go back to elementary school and it has taken 10 years for me to get an associate degree. I am now working in a Bachelors. With all these things going on I definitely have lost the time and commitment I had for chanting. Studying at night while the kids sleep leave no hope for me to wake up any earlier than 6 am and as soon as I wake up there is a bunch of chores to do. In all my chanting is null, but, I am leaving of the best memories I had. I know that chanting works in giving you the highest pleasure ever, I know that it purifies your heart and it leaves you with no material desires, I know if I had continued my chanting I would have probably remained celibate all my life and would have never gone back to school. It was in the moment when I stopped that suddenly all this urges appeared.. I wanted a husband, children, a house, a degree, a normal life, etc. So I think that in the beginning of the process when you start chanting you put sense gratification on hold and if you stop chanting your sense gratification is no longer on hold. For an advance chanter the sense gratification that was on hold gradually disappears until it becomes null (but the process might take longer than what it was assumed in ISKCON). Many devotees I saw would stop chanting carefully thinking that they were very advance only to turn back to sense enjoyment.
Another interesting point that you all bring up is how effective was ISKCON. I have a lot of faith in Srila Prabhupada but I do recognize that he was not perfect (I know it is kind of contradictory to have faith and not believe in his perfection). I know he had the most drive to bring KC to the west and he was not materially motivated and so I believe in his purity and innocence. I stand by his faith and I stand by his devotion. That being said, he didn’t know what would happen as a consequence of bringing Krishna to the west. He said so “I am a puppet, do with me as you wish”. So there were consequences, and VERY grave ones at that, on teaching hippies how to renounce something they couldn’t. But how else could he have done this? go around around the subject and the fact is he did what he knew how, if he could see the future he would have done everything differently. His faith, devotion, determination, drove him to believe that this would work.. but if you see what was his thought to start you would understand that at some point he was successful. He said in the Jaladuta that he depended on Krishna to do as he wished, he also said that if he could only turn one devotee back to godhead he would consider his mission successful. Well, I believe he has taken more than one devotee back to godhead. While there are thousand devotees that may still be in probation I have seen, since my childhood, how many devotees are sincerely following this devotional process and how it is working out for them. I have faith that this devotees will surely go back to Krishna because no matter what you believe the devotional process of chanting the Maha Mantra works.. it does!
Vrajabhumi said:
AM
Chanting doesn’t stop you from desiring to enjoy, it is natural to desire to enjoy, why wouldn’t it be? In ISKCON the people who stopped chanting and then left that path didn’t do so because they stopped chanting, it’s the other way around — stopping chanting was part of the reason they were leaving, i.e. they didn’t care anymore about following strict vaidhi sadhana or they lost faith in bhakti yoga, so they stopped chanting — not that they stopped chanting and then lost faith or stopped caring. Countless people chant a lot but don’t do any “devotional service” for ISKCON or any guru while living “normal” lives, and many people in ISKCON don’t chant much if at all but are still doing lot’s of service.
Your conception of spiritual advancement equating no desire to enjoy life is an error. It’s not what Vedanta teaches, it’s what gurus teach in order to convince people that they are fallen if they desire anything but to serve them, they even distort, mis-translate and misuse scripture for that purpose. The desire to enjoy is always part of all living beings, chanting doesn’t change that. Prabhupada taught the conception that any desire to enjoy is selfish, therefore while under that conception many people feel they lose the desire to enjoy for a while, but really they don’t, they are just preoccupied with something else for a while, see http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/embryonic-journey/
John said:
You all have not explained why chanting the maha mantra is the greatest sacrifice. You have not explained why this all important and simple technique was not recommended in other ages. No speculations please.
JAPA said:
In ISKCON one is taught that it’s OK to think about your “service” during japa. One is taught to beg for big results from book distribution during japa and to chant japa with the aim of big book distribution results and that it’s OK because it’s “seva”.
They also do things like chant very loudly, sometimes even yelling, in front of each other, such as when devottees are all gathered in the temple room after mangala aratika to all chant japa together.
I can see how this type of japa might brainwash someone into a cult mentality.
However, japa is meant to be a private, quiet and contemplative practice and one is meant to meditate on the nama, rupa, guna and lila of their chosen deity during such practice.
John said:
Still you have not answered my question. japa could be of different mantras but the Maha mantra is different in Many ways. In every sacrifice you give something. Sankirtan Yajna is something more serious than you all think. In the Shree hari namamrita it is said if the faithless chant the holy names, they will just destroy themselves. You willing sacrifice your mental freedom in Sankirtan yajna. By chanting the maha mantra and listening to it attentively without diviation, You will definately think only about krishna and Shrila prabhupad’s instructions. This is forcefull process on the mind. its different from reading and hearing about Krishna and giving it a deep thought about its truthfullness then accepting and thinking of him. This is an attempt to sacrifice your mental freedom.
GM said:
>> You all have not explained why chanting the maha mantra is the greatest sacrifice.
I think we can agree that doing some meditation is good. At least, they relax me.
There are many mantras. You can choose any one. It is never said in Gita that chanting mahamantra is greatest sacrifice. Actually, Hare Krishna mantra is never mentioned in Gita or SB.
I wanted to de-program myself from Prabhupada. Now I chant “Hare Ram Hare Ram …..”.
>> You have not explained why this all important and simple technique was not recommended in other ages.
Do you believe in different ages – kali, satya, dvapar and treta ?
Jap is a easy way to remember God. It is like a prayer to me. But most purifying moments for me are when I talk with God (Ram) accepting that He listens to me. I do jap when I can.
I do believe that it is good for me to do Jap and it is especially recommended for people like me. But this is personal faith. If you disagree, won’t argue.
I think your problem is that you were forced to do Jap. You were told that Jap is the only way and it is the greatest sacrifice. Now you disagree with Iskcon and you are correct to some degree.
If you don’t enjoy doing jap, then you don’t have to do it. It is not for you. There are many ways to attain God.
Like Vrajabhumi is said many times, God is everywhere.
SB — 11.29 Krishna says — “Easiest way to attain Him is to see God in everyone.”
BG — 12.10 — Do actions offering them to God.
BG — 12.11 — Do actions without getting affected by fruits of actions.
Do seva (service) to others. That is just be happy and give happiness to others.
There are many sacrifices or ways to attain God. Just choose one and stick to it. Beauty of Gita is that it has something for everyone.
Vrajabhumi said:
John
The English word “sacrifice” is just an approximation for and one meaning of “yajna” in Vedic religion. The concept of yajna is that you offer something to God or the Goddess or their various manifestations in other divinities (the devas) in order that God will reciprocate with you. Generally yajnas were and still are performed by priests invoking God through mantras while sitting around one or more sacred fires. The fire was seen as representing God, by offering food into the fire while chanting mantras it was believed to please God and invoke his or her presence and blessings to fulfill the desired objective of the yajna. Essentially a yajna was a supplication and worship and bestowal of entertainment and gifts for God in hope of reciprocation in some form, e.g. moksha (liberation from samsara) rain, good harvest, elevation to swarga-loka (heavenly life), or really anything.
Often these yajnas were elaborate rituals with many priests and lasting for a long time, depending on the wealth of the person sponsoring the yajna. It was often believed that the more opulent your worship, with better trained priests, the more likely your desires would be fulfilled.
That was a main aspect of the Vedic religious tradition — which Krishna spoke about in the Gita that really it is him alone who is being propitiated, and him alone who is the enjoyer of yajnas, and him alone who can reciprocate and fulfill your desires.
In the Bhagavatam it is said that in Kali Yuga, the present age, the prescribed yajna or sacrifice is sankirtan, the congregational singing and chanting of mantras and songs glorifying God. By that yajna you please God, and God will reciprocate with you. Who among us hasn’t felt the mystical potency of sankirtan? Mahaprabhu initiated the sankirtan movement, it is the only yajna absolutely necessary in this age.
From Srimad Bhagavatam
Kali Santarana Upanishad
Vrajabhumi said:
JAPA
When I was in ISKCON we were never taught to do our japa during any type of service, nor to meditate on what you claim to have been told about asking for better results on selling books or whatever, we were told to do japa the way Prabhupada instructed — to have the mentality of asking to serve God and to focus exclusively on the mantra. And yes, that is a type of conditioning or maybe even brainwashing when you consider that we were also taught that the only way to serve God was through serving the guru — Prabhupada. So we were instructed to meditate for a few hours everyday on asking God to allow us to serve Prabhupada. When really that is not what is taught in authentic Gaudiya Vaishnava doctrine, you are supposed to meditate on Krishna or his avatars, lilas, etc.
Ezra said:
I have been chanting the “Hare Krishna” Mantra for about a month, usually 1 or 2 rounds of 108 repetitions throughout the day. I don’t have the time to do more than that, because of the daily obligations of life. I never intended to join the Krishna Consciousness society to begin with, but after stumbling onto this blog I am certain that I will never join. Spiritual discipline is good, but forcing people to chant all day isn’t going to accomplish anything of value. It’s just like you said, it causes resentment and a lack of enthusiasm. In reality, chanting the names of God should energize a person’s entire Being. Making that practice into a chore is probably the most evil thing a person could do to another human being, because it causes a person to view their very spiritual life as something to be avoided and hated.
krishna das said:
There is no strict rules for chanting the holy name
Hare Krishna
Hope you are all well,
There are some verses of the scriptures that I always remember and one of them is about sadhana (spiritual practice). There are many sadhanas according to the goal of the yogui.
For example someone who is interested in mystical powers his sadhana should be astanga-yoga, yaga (offering oblations) and yajña (performing sacrifices).
Sadhana in bhakti-yoga is very simple as said by Lord Caitanya in CC.Madhya. 193-196:
[Own translation: Sadhu-sanga, Krishna seva, reading or hearing Srimad Bhagavatam, chanting* of the holy name, living in Vraja, these five are the essential or most important parts of sadhana.]
These five are the last of the 64 limbs of vaidhi-sadhana-bhakti, and are the most powerful. Lord Caitanya continues:
Own translation: among these five if only one is practiced a little with intelligence, Krsna-prema will awake.
translation is pretty clear, you can find a similar verse like these in madhya 22 from verse 128.
translation is clear.
As you see it is not necessary to wake up early in the morning or being all day engaged in devotional service as Prabhupada used to say or even being initiated. Of 64 limbs of vaidhi-bhakti these last fives are the most important, even it is not said that initiation is required. If someone follow this five limbs without offences will get perfection.
From Jaiva-Dharma:
Now what about japa meditation? one of these five limbs is chanting the holy name of Krishna. the sanskrit word kirtana usually is translated into english as chanting but his universal meaning is to name something. In this case naming the holy name of krishna could be chanting it loudly, with japa, or whatever means, there is no strict rules for chanting or reciting the holy name, the only important thing is to avoid the 10 offences to the holy name I recommend to read the book harinam chintamani for proper chanting of the holy name. There is no difference between the holy name of Krishna and Krishna himself, for this reason it is not necessary to be initiated:
I am not initiated, I have no diksa guru, I just follow such instructions of Lord Caitanya and really works, I have no doubts of this, Also I am not against initiation but I consider that there are too many bogus gurus around the world, sure there are genuine gurus, but where?. Personally, I think that the instructions of the spiritual master makes him worshipable, I mean, in a healthy guru-disciple relationship, the guru enlight the disciple with trascendental knowledge and both become happy, and a natural love sprout from the disciple’s heart, because he is experiencing the enlighment and become joyful in his self, who will not be grateful to such guru?. But today all is the opposite, now first you have to worship the guru like an idol and magically krishna will bestow his mercy upon you, this is pure idolatry and offensive, contrary to a sane and mature guru-disciple love relationship. And sadly you can see this idolatry in all modern gaudiya-vaishnavism.
Hari Bolo.
John said:
Are we saying that constantly hearing something repeatedly whether you like it or not does not have any effect on the mind?
The advertising companies know this very well. They repeat their ads over and over again. They know how this affects the mind of consumers. Repeating it at even a higher feequency has a higher effect.
What I am saying is that it is the conclusion of the sages that in this age of Kali, such a drastic action of forcelly controlling the mind is the only way. people who engage in this chanting should be told the truth that chanting with doubts in your mind could spell doom as much as precipitating mental illness. Though it is warned in the vedic texts that chanting with doubts is an offence against the holy names, The actual effect of chanting with doubts is not explained.
How many non Indian devotees are free of doubts? If the Indians also doubt the claims of the puranas.
The Bhagavat purana makes it very clear that it was written for the less intelligent. The upanishads that deal on the topic of Brahman do not bring in the fables of the Puranas. People whose height reached the heavenly planets, The earth falling down into some water and the demon tried to stop Varaha from picking it up yet the Indians will show you the exact location where Varaha killed Hiranyaksha in India. The Indians will even show you the exact location where Krishna was born.
What can make a sound mind believe this? Mind control.
Garuda who is supposed to be a Spirit was here on earth eating snakes instead of carrying lord Vishnu around and he was caused. Do you really believe that God needs a carrier to take him around his world? I will stop here but I will advise that you read even the story of Krishna with an open mind.
Vrajabhumi said:
John
I don’t think you have a clear grasp of what you’re talking about, a lot of what you say is based on a misunderstanding of what is actually taught in the Vedic scriptures, especially having to do with chanting mantras. You are extrapolating ideas not present in the actual texts, creating fears where none are actually mentioned. You also haven’t a comprehensive education from the Upanishads, a lot of what appears in the Puranas also appears in the Upanishads, fantastic stories and all.
astrologer said:
For liberation ,many astrologers say- sun, moon and jupiter needs to be strong. If you see horoscope of Chaitanya Mahaprobhu, he lived his whole life in exaltation. Lord Krishna had almost all planets in exaltation, while Lord Rama had 6/7 planets in vargottama/near exaltation.
5-25 yrs of Chaitanya was- Venus near exaltation aspected by a pushkara jupiter.(saint)
25-32 yrs- Sun in pushkara
32-42 yrs – Moon in pushkara
42-48 yrs – Mars exalted.
So all throughout – Sree Chaitanya was perfect. Pushkara is special degree of Lord Brahma, where Planet become especially auspicious/pure.
And since most of Chaitanya’s teaching was around chanting Hare Krishna, we should accept that as most perfect instruction. Even Lord Brahma toldin one of the 108 upanishads- Kalisantarana upanishad – 35 million times Hare Krishna mantra will deliver a person even from murder.
before Reading any of ISKCON literature, I had a determination to complete 35 million times the chanting.
Once I read the ISKCON Bhagavad Gita,the wholeconcept went off my mind. My focus on chanting slackened. I stopped chanting. This is all due to Prabhupada, who commented on Hare Krishna whitout having a single planet in Pushkara.
Chanting Hare Krishna is a religion unto itself.It has nothing to do with ISKCON. ISKCON tried to copyright chanting, which was actually open sourced by Lord Brahma in Kali santarana upanishad.
“Thus people hated chanting because of ISKCON.”
John said:
Has any of you read something about the Jonestown tragedy and Davidians? Have you also read that one of the founding “Gurus” of the Jehovah’s witnesses predicted the end of the world thrice and got it wrong yet his followers continued to believe him? Can you ask yourself what will make someone commit suicide in the name of religion? The answer is that the Guru or leader carefully but systematically get the followers to accept his words as absolute truth. He then tells them of the serious consequences awaiting anyone who abandons the “path”. For instance hell fire for persons who think the Guru is human and his words the mere words of a human. When this is well estalished in the minds of the followers, the Guru can even ask them to commit suicide and they will obey. He can ask them to kill people who oppose him and the disciples will obey. (Remeber the events in New Vrindaban under Kirtanananda) I was first initiated by Kirtananada and in those days, If Kirtanananda had asked me to kill someone who opposed him, I would have done that coz I saw him as someone directly communicating with God.
In same way if ACBS had instructed any of his followers to kill anyone, they would have done same. You can see that ACBS asked his followers to worship a plant everyday to be able to enter heaven by obtaining devotion as a mercy from the plant and his disciples all accepted to worship the plant everyday. They even do it today. If he had asked them to worship rats would they have refused? The answer is NO!!! This is because in the minds of the followers, ACBS is seeing God and talking with him everyday. And in the Vedic literatures, anyone can find some justification to worship practically anything even crocodiles. Some Indians still worship crocodiles.
When the “Guru” in the Jonestown tragedy told his followers to commit suicide to be able to go to heaven, almost all of them obeyed. Some people even administered the poison to their own kids. Would any of them agree that they were brainwashed? There is no brainwashed individual that will accept that he or she is actually brainwashed.
Just like in the case of the Jehovah’s winesses, the ISKCONITES, will still follow ACBS despite the fact that he displayed so many negetive tendencies towards Women and Children. CAN SOMEONE HELP ME HERE??? I WAS TOLD THAT ACBS ALSO PREDICTED THE THIRD WORLD WAR AND FAILED. I WAS TOLD DURING MY DAYS IN ISKCON THAT HE SAID THE THIRD WORLD WAR WILL LAST ABOUT 27 YEARS.
On a last note, I want to add that seeing your “Guru” as human and fallible, is the begining of freedom.
Vrajabhumi said:
John
I think you are judging all of Prabhupada’s followers by how you used to see him. Not all of them have the same belief that he was always right in all he said or did. Most do not, but they still accept him as a guru. They reject what they disagree with and accept what they agree with. For example most of his followers don’t believe in Prabhupada’s insistence that the moon is further away from us than the sun, or they don’t believe in what he taught about how children should be raised, i.e. I don’t know of any who refuse to educate their daughters and force them to marry by puberty; nor do I know of any who only educate their boys from Prabhupada’s books — all of which Prabhupada wanted. In all religions some people are fanatic blind followers while others are more circumspect and accept what they agree with and reject what they don’t, while still retaining faith in the tradition. With Prabhupada it’s a bit different because he not only taught theology, he also incorporated cultural traditions or practices as part of his “perfect teachings,” even though more often than not those “Vedic” ideals were a product of 19th century Indian culture or were from other various source (e.g. Chanakya Pandit), not actual ancient Vedic culture as he claimed. Still, often they believe he had special vision given to him by Krishna, therefore many or probably most believed in his war prophecy.
I have written about Prabhupada’s war prophecy in a 2 part series at:
Part 1 — http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/estimated-prophet-profit/
Part 2– http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/karma-chameleon/
Malati dasi said:
I think both of you are correct. There are 2 sides to a coin.
Brainwashing by running over and over ideas to someone creates a sense of alternate reality on the receiver of the message. Of course the psychological constituents of a person also determine how one can be susceptible to brainwashing.
You are americans so I use Patty Hearst as an example, the daughter?? of the publishing magnate. When she was kidnapped , she was just living a normal life of a scion of a publishing magnate. The details escape me now, but her isolation from her social milliue and living with people who had strong issues with something (can’t remember now, what their gripes were about) and living in the fringes of the society, and inculcating and running through on a regular basis the group’s issues, caused in her in time to identify with the group and their issues. Didn’t she participate in robbing banks or may be shoot-out? Cant remember the story.
Her experience is typical of cults. The ISKCON experience is similar.
I lived in the ashram in the Phils., I’m sure they were the same situation in all ISKCON ashrams back then, there, we always heard in the morning sermons, er, lectures that people who were outside of ISKCON were demons engaged in demonic activities. I think those were the words of B S and which were passed on down the ISKCON line.
I remember identifying with that idea and getting feeling superior over anyone who were non-devotees.
Living in the ashram with people who say the same things, eat the same food, sleeps in the same type of rooms, dress the same, read the same topics from the same ONE source, and listen to the same authority creates an alternate reality among them , far, far away from the mainstream society. Is’nt this called group-thinking?
Then mix that setting with the typical psychedelic alternate reality seeking young people and others who had issues with their parents, and of course you can see how easy it is for them to be attracted to a sub-culture being peddled as the culture in “heaven” conveyed by someone personally godsend by Krishna. How is that for a volatile molotov cocktail?
As for myself, I was 18 year old then, who had a very “bendable” brain because I did not have that much experience with the wide world. So what can anyone expect? Still, because I trust that there’s God within me, I used my little intelligence to decide that KC as pushed by ISKCON was not really about KC. I got out in one piece and reasonably say stronger in my faith.
That’s why I think your site , Vraja, is needed if we care about the future of GVism in the west. There should be a paradigm shift, a giant seismic shift in thinking on how GVism can be sanely approach in this high tech world.
I have ideas to share about this seismic shift but have to go back to the gritty reality of hanging the clothes on the line.
Haribol!
John said:
Vraja,
I have read from your link about prabhupad’s prediction of the third world war and his subsequent claim that Krishna changed his mind after realising that his prophesy did not come true. I also read how much effort Ravindra Swarup did put in to try to clear Prabhupad of the mess but all he said was only laughable.
Its very suprising that Ravindra Swarup after so many years of tutelage can still be exhibiting so much ignorance of basic vedic knowledge. I guess he was desparately trying to defend Prabhupad without minding if he contradicts vedic conclusions or not.
I don;t need to make any quotations to make him realise his errors.
First, Ravindra Swarup will agree that the supreme though in a mystic sleep in the maha tattva, is aloof from material activities and watches maya or his material energy from a distance and does not interfere with her activities.
Second, Ravindra Swarup will also agree that Krishna’s pastimes are all a display of yogamaya and have no tinge of material contamination in them because Krishna never really leaves Goloka vrindavan for even a second.
Prabhupad and his disciple, Ravindra Swarup are bringing in something completely new to Vedic knowledge. They are trying to say the Lord now interferes with the activities of Mahamaya. It was for the purpose of Vishnu not to interfere with Maya that Shva was manifested. Shiva is the manifestation of the glance of Lord Vishnu for the purpose of impregnating Maya with living beings. But even Shiva keeps a distance from from material energy. He does his job from the lining between Material nature and the Spritual sky. All of this is very clearly explained in the Brahma Samhita.
Activities by living entities in the material world are the basis of Karma. Its this Prabhupad that taught repeatedly that the Supersoul and the soul can be compared to two birds on a three. One bird eats the fruits of the tree but the other bird which is the Supersoul does not eat of the fruit of the tree. This prabhupad always taught that the secind bird, the Supersoul, does not interfere with the activities of the second bird but watches and accompanies him through the journey.
Pranhupad’s statement that “krishna changed his mind” with regards to his false prophesy is a direct postulation that Krishna now interferes with material nature. The World war III that he claimed to have seen was definately a result of karma but Prabhupad postulates that “Krishna changed his mind” meaning Krishna interferes.
Ravindra’s arguement that whatever we can do, the Supreme also does and as such because we can change our minds, the Supreme can also change his mind, is wet with ignorance. He forgets that we enjoy the fruits of action but Krishn does not. He forgets that we can come under the influence of Maya but Krishna does not. That also means that we change our mind or desires which is one of our coverings by maya but Krishna is not covered by the elements of maya which includes the mind, ego, intelligence etc. Ravindra Swarup is postulating that krishna can come under the influence of maya becuase we can come under it. This is laughable.
If we are to accept Ravindra’s conclusion. it simply means that Krishna is not “tri kala jnana”
(knower of past. present and future) any more. it simply implies that the future is not certain but that the future is a result of Krishna’s changing mind.
The prediction by prabhupad goes to show that He Prabhupad says whatever he likes and is a grossly conditioned soul. His visions of the Spiritual sky are non different from his vision of the third world war. Krishna changing his mind also means there is no need for a discription of the Spiritual world because Krishna could have changed his mind about the plan of the spiritual world thousands of years ago.
This is laughable. I have dropped all this philosophy a very long time ago but Ravindra Swarup has just made me to talk as if I am still into all this stuff.
John said:
Verse 6 of the brahma Samhita as translated by Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati states as follows:
The Lord of Gokula is the transcendental Supreme Godhead, the own Self of eternal ecstasies. He is the superior of all superiors and is busily engaged in the enjoyments of the transcendental realm and has no association with His mundane potency.
So ACBS and Ravindra Swarup are accusing Krishna of directly associating with Material Energy. They are speaking for their grossly conditioned minds.
Vrajabhumi said:
John
You don’t have a good understanding of what Krishna teaches about his presence and control of this world. Krishna never leaves Vrindavan in the sense that lila is eternal, not that God doesn’t exist everywhere. The “material energy” doesn’t exist independent of Krishna.
Krishna says:
Bhagavad Gita 6.30
For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.28.6-7
The Supersoul alone is the ultimate controller and creator of this world, and thus He alone is also the created. Similarly, the Soul of all existence Himself both maintains and is maintained, withdraws and is withdrawn. No other entity can be properly ascertained as separate from Him, the Supreme Soul, who nonetheless is distinct from everything and everyone else. The appearance of the threefold material nature, which is perceived within Him, has no actual basis. Rather, you should understand that this material nature, composed of the three modes, is simply the product of His illusory potency.
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.13.24
Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.
In Jaiva Dharma Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote:
From Bhaktivinoda Thakura from his Sri Tattva Sutra:
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.27.11-12
A liberated soul realizes the Absolute Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental and who is manifest as a reflection even in the false ego. He is the support of the material cause and He enters into everything. He is absolute, one without a second, and He is the eyes of the illusory energy.
The presence of the Supreme Lord can be realized just as the sun is realized first as a reflection on water, and again as a second reflection on the wall of a room, although the sun itself is situated in the sky.
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.2.41
A devotee should not see anything as being separate from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. Ether, fire, air, water, earth, the sun and other luminaries, all living beings, the directions, trees and other plants, the rivers and oceans – whatever a devotee experiences he should consider to be an expansion of Krsna. Thus seeing everything that exists within creation as the body of the Supreme Lord, Hari, the devotee should offer his sincere respects to the entire expansion of the Lord’s body.
Also see http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/see-me-feel-me/
Malati dasi said:
Vraja and John
Ok, let’s make some sense to all your posts in a more human like terms.
I agree with John that Krishna is aloof from the going-ons in the material world, (this is classic conclusion from all followers of the universal Hindu faith) in so far as John sees that what’s happening in the material world is some kind of a process governed by the law of karma and within the meta-law of karma is the law of nature, otherwise known as the law of physics.
The law of nature, for example, the second law of thermodynamics is the expression of the universal principle of decay observable in nature—like the process a jiva undergoes – birth, growth and death.
Krishna is aloof in the sense that he has the law of karma and law of nature “deputized on his behalf” to take care of this aspect of the jiva’s existence.
I think at the most fundamental level of reality is a deterministic reality due to the law of karma but on another level, on the law of nature level, for example, on the quantum dynamics level, where probabilities pop in and out of the quantum field human free will operates.
John, I do not agree when you seem to imply that Krishna as the knower of present, past and future is like someone getting up from his bed to have a break from his sexual intercourse with Radha to peer into his telescope to see what the jivas are doing and shrugging his shoulder nonchalantly.
Does Krishna change his mind? From my take on this subject, I would say that question to me lacks meaning and not applicable.
Vraja,
Of course, all the verses you quoted support the conclusion that ultimately there is only one potentiality and energy in the animate and inanimate entities and that is the Lord’s.
However, from what you quoted from Jaiva-dharma which is obviously a commentary by Bhaktivinode Thakur:
Sakti is the quality, or inherent function, that is subordinate to His will. You have said that sakti is the embodiment of consciousness, that it possesses will, and that it is beyond the influence of the three qualities of material nature. This is correct, but only insofar as sakti operates fully under the support of a pure conscious entity, and is thus considered identical with that powerful entity.
If you study the quotes closely, it says we are one with the Lord in terms of our own respective potencies because potency is the embodiment of our consciousness.
However , the same quotes qualify it by saying “but only insofar as sakti operates fully under the support of a pure conscious entity, and is thus considered identical with that powerful entity”.
I think that is the most important point, our potential to uncover our potency (to be one with God ) that is identical with God will be dependent on our use of our free will that our consciousness possess.
From this very idea, John may be correct when he said Krishna seem to be aloof.
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GM said:
Malati wrote – “We always heard in the morning sermons, er, lectures that people who were outside of ISKCON were demons engaged in demonic activities. I think those were the words of Srila Prabhupada and which were passed on down the ISKCON line. I remember identifying with that idea and getting feeling superior over anyone who were non-devotees.”
I have met devotee who believe this way and I did not accept their statements. My question is:
Does Bhakivedanta purports are cause of this or people misinterpret him that way or both?
This is my significant disagreement with him. He is not perfect and I can ignore his material statements. But the teaching of contempt towards others is completely against the devotional principles. Such people who cannot respect God in everyone are not even devotees or are low level devotees.
Ratan Chan said:
Firstly, we have to acknowledge about God existence &the next follow His instructions nothing else. God is the Full of Knowledge, Eternal & Blissful. If we argue with our little inteligence & judge according our limitted vision then we can make any spiritual advancement.
To Chant Hare Krishna Mahamatra is not sentimental or blind faith. FuIt’s origion from PURE scriptures. Furthermore, it is for purifying our Mind. We have to chant sincerely. In this age some onsidered according to number of followers. The Truth has no Link with Numbe of Followers.
In the Recent, some leaders killed by their followers although they were elected even by their votes. In accounting public votes, some were very popular.
In this age people don’t like to understand the scripture, instead some like to arugue to expose as so called ‘intelligent’. The fool like to accept False as Truth and Truth their tendency to prove as False. Similarly, religion, the fool wants to make as irreligion and irreligion want to make as religion.
Sorry John, if you accept the Knowledge you can realise properly. Otherwise, don’t argue or Judge to others with your poor fund of knowledge, vision or with your folishness or rascalism. Please raise your Consciousness, Chant Hare Krishna & Be Happy. There are many scholars who followed, still are following… It’s your chioce,
Ratan Chakraborty said:
Firstly, we have to acknowledge about God existence &the next follow His instructions nothing else. God is the Full of Knowledge, Eternal & Blissful. If we argue with our little intelligence & judge according our limited vision then we can make any spiritual advancement.
To Chant Hare Krishna Maha mantra is not sentimental or blind faith. It’s originating from PURE scriptures. Furthermore, it is for purifying our Mind. We have to chant sincerely. In this age some considered according to number of followers. The Truth has no Link with Number of Followers.
In the Recent, some leaders killed by their followers although they were elected even by their votes. In accounting public votes, some were very popular.
In this age people don’t like to understand the scripture, instead some like to argue to expose as so called ‘intelligent’. The fool like to accept False as Truth and Truth their tendency to prove as False. Similarly, religion, the fool wants to make as irreligion and irreligion want to make as religion.
Sorry John, if you accept the Knowledge you can realize properly. Otherwise, don’t argue or Judge to others with your poor fund of knowledge, vision or with your foolishness or rascal-ism. Please raise your Consciousness, Chant Hare Krishna & Be Happy. There are many scholars who followed, still are following… It’s your choice,