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This is a reply to Cacofonix’s comments and questions to the Don’t You Forget About Me post. In that post I went on about how to directly perceive and experience Krishna in our day to day lives. I’ve gone over the same topic quite a bit at posts like these and others:
Through The Looking Glass
Final Fantasy
See Me, Feel Me
Cacofonix was wondering if there was some special way to get that experience, saying he was in anxiety over wanting to experience and relate directly with Krishna. This is my response:
People experience God at all times, yet people don’t realize that because they don’t understand how reality works under God’s control. For example, you wrote:
Between the time someone has understood “Krishna is source and essence of everything” and the time Krishna reveals it through direct perception, what will happen to the person?
For example, I have understood through Logic and through inspiration (from within and external, like this website ) that Krishna is sum and substance of everything. But I have not yet realized that.I am consciously telling that (Krishna’s complete control and deep involvement) to myself when I experience anything (from a good meal to playing with my son to challenging experience at work).
Now, I guess I have to wait for the revelation. That can happen in a few minutes to a few Janmas. So I don’t know how long it will take.
Question: Is there anything I can do to placate my mind? The anxiety is too much to bear.
You’re seeing yourself in control of your thoughts, reminding yourself to see Krishna as the controller—when in reality Krishna as paramatma is the one reminding YOU. Practically all the verses on this topic say essentially the same thing—understand that Krishna is in control of everything you experience, 100%. By that understanding, automatically you see Krishna in everything and everyone, and from that Krishna will use that control to commune with you. But first you need to understand that this world, your life, is like a movie or play you’re taking part in and watching. You must understand there’s a script and a writer/director to bring it into fruition—and therefore everything is going on according to a script, it’s all planned out.
That means not only are the people you interact with acting out a script and being directed, but also any and all media, i.e. anything you read, watch or listen to is also scripted out for you to experience at the exact moment you experience it. Because of that Krishna can use that control over everything to communicate to you through what you experience. Every second of your life you’re experiencing what Krishna planned out for you, not only in the big picture, but in every single detailed thing you experience. Be open to seeing and hearing communication from Krishna directly to you through that control of the script of your life. Srimad Bhagavatam says:
Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.
As the chariot of air carries an aroma from its source and immediately catches the sense of smell, similarly, one who has the vision of seeing everything united with God [yoga-ratam], can catch the Supreme Soul, who is equally present everywhere.
All you can perceive is what Krishna has planned for you, so relax, there’s nothing you can do but learn how to see the absolute truth of reality. As you become more used to that, you’ll see that what you’re reading right now is actually Krishna directly speaking to you. You’ll see Krishna speaking through everyone and everything you experience because you’ll constantly understand that Krishna is literally the only controlling factor in existence. Be aware of the truth, be open not only to understanding Krishna’s control, but also be open to Krishna using that control to communicate directly to you.
When you’re comfortable with the truth of reality, then Krishna will start to speak to you all of the time, in your mind, through others, through media—everything you experience will be a platform for constant communication. It’s not easy, it takes a lot of getting used to, it can be too stressful if you’re not ready. Krishna is a very high energy person who likes to communicate constantly, coming at you from all directions, including within your mind. It will literally be like living with a conjoined twin, experiencing the reality of two souls in the same body and mind—except only Krishna is controlling and creating your thoughts, movements, speech, memory, etc. The Upanishads use the analogy of two birds in the same tree:
Two birds, inseparable friends, cling to the same tree. One of them eats the sweet fruit, the other looks on without eating.
On the same tree man sits grieving, immersed, bewildered, by his own impotence (an-îsâ). But when he sees the other lord (îsa) contented, and knows his glory, then his grief passes away.
He who does not know that indestructible being of the Rig-Veda, that highest ether-like (Self) wherein all the gods reside, of what use is the Rig-Veda to him? Those only who know it, rest contented.
That’s a very foreign experience for people who are used to seeing only themselves in their body and mind. It’s really not something you want to experience until you’re ready. You’ll never be by yourself in your body ever again. Not that you ever have been, but since birth you feel as if you’re by yourself. Once self-realized, that goes away. You’ll be permanently aware of being with another person in your body and mind, constantly, always, everyday, every moment—and that you have no control. People aren’t used to that type of constant intimacy, you don’t want it sprung on you too soon, it can get very confusing and exhausting for beginners.
It’s not like Radha Krishna is a passive partner, just the opposite. Your constant attention will be sought, both internally and externally. Since Radha Krishna controls everything, when you get closer, Krishna likes to use everything to show off to you—like a school friend who likes to show off their skills, hobbies, etc. All art, music, dance, theater, movies, technology, animals, etc, all of it is created and controlled by Krishna. Krishna is the sole inspiration of everything for everyone. No one but Krishna has the ability to independently think or create anything. You’ll be expected to appreciate that fact and enjoy what the world has to offer as being Krishna’s personal gifts.
And that isn’t even including the more intimate aspect of your relationship. Krishna is looking for as intimate a relationship as he/she can get from you. That adds a whole other level of complication for you to deal with, and because it’s the basis of your eternal relationship (sthayi bhava), it’s not taken lightly. Radha Krishna will tell you what type of relationship they want from you.
I know in the Gaudiya tradition it’s usually taught that you choose what type of relationship you want, but that’s only for the practice of raganuga sadhana. In truth, because you have no free will, you can’t choose anything. After your sadhana phase, knowing you have no free will, and that your permanent bhava is already planned for you, Radha Krishna will reveal what type of relationship they want with you. Your sadhana phase is completely over once you begin directly relating with paramatma. Jiva Goswami writes in his Bhakti Sandarbha:
In the Gautamiya Tantra it is said:
For they who are always fallen in love with the lotus feet of Lord Krsna there is no japa, no Deity worship, no meditation, and no rules.
Don’t feel you need to be closer to Krishna than you are, so much so that you’re in anxiety over it. It’s Krishna who wants to take it slow, for your own good. Be aware of the truth of what and who is in control of everything you experience—so much can be revealed to you, communicated to you, with that attitude.
Cacofonix said:
Thanks a lot for a very clear and excellent detailing of this process.
I see a lot of love flowing through this write up. Thanks a ton for the love.
I love this line (every line is awesome but still this is the pick of the lot)
“Krishna is a very high energy person who likes to communicate constantly”
I will keep coming back to this post again and again (just like your other posts)
I am a playwright and somewhat of a stand up comedian (in my language tamil)
I was very honest and never understood where I get the jokes from. But after reading your blogs, I realized the source. I also realized / understood that Krishna is the source of every single thought (not just my jokes)
btw, my sister and I are twins :)
thanks again vrajabhumi
cacofonix
Seeker said:
Vrajabhumi,
I just wanted to expatiate my understanding on some of the points that you had explained earlier and somewhat related to this post. Nothing seems enough and it is all nectarean (which is a cliche by now and so misused)I would be happy to hear more from you about any different angle or corrections to the below. A typical preaching goes something like this:
a) We have freewill to choose whether we should surrender to Krishna or not. Though there are ‘n’ number of theories about the origin of the jiva, all the contemporary vaisnava preachers seem to agree on one thing – we have free will now, albeit limited, but we really do possess the freewill to choose between Krishna or maya, follow our vows even though they might agree that it is all Krishna’s mercy ultimately.
b) Material house is a jail for the rebellious jivas and Durga is like a jail warden.
c) We, Vaisnvas, offer our respectful obeisances to Durga from a distance but we are more concerned with Radharani.
d) Durga torments the rebellious jivas till they come to their senses and agree to surrender to Krishna.
This just paints a sado-masochistic view of God and people think that they will be able to carry on with their devotional lives with such an understanding. You are made to fear the maya, powerful illusory potency, how some devotee who left the temple has now fallen to maya and stopped chanting 16 rounds, so on and so forth. If I place my child in kindergarten to learn her ABCs to enter higher studies, do we call that as a jail? Is kindergarten a place for punishment since the child is not using his/her freewill to agree to study higher syllabus? Does the child even have a choice to decide whether he/she should study a Ph.D? Strangely enough, this is the prevalent understanding amongst vaishnavas who always seem to describe maya or Durga in a somewhat derogatory note – of course, not explicitly but more of a sub-conscious, guilt-ridden approach to bhakti with their dualistic vision of ontological reality itself – in other words, to look upto the skies in search of a fantasy world vrindavana, while looking at this world or daily lives as maha-maya and as aloof from God. Some even think that Durga is a demi-goddess.
Here are some of the quotes from the internet, many or all of which were mentioned in your earlier posts:
“Krishna is Durga. Durga is Krishna. One who sees that they are different will not become liberated from the cycle of repeated birth and death.”
“Durga is the personal potency of Lord Krishna, and therefore she is Lord Krishna Himself. For this reason Durga should not be considered manifested from a portion of the Lord’s illusory potency Maya.”
“Even is one continually worships her, durga is still difficult to understand.”
“Durga is the supreme goddess. She is an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She is the transcendental potency of the Lord. She is manifested from the form of Lord Maha-Vishnu”.
“Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise”.
“She is identical with Gokula’s queen Sri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood”.
“She is the potency of personified devotional service. She worships Her beloved Supreme Lord. Because She is understood only with great difficulty, the saintly devotees call her “durga” (difficult to understand). She is the personal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and she is always filled with the nectar of love for Him”
“From her is manifested the maha-maya potency, the controller of all conditioned souls, who covers them with illusion. By this maha- maya potency the residents of the entire world are bewildered into thinking themselves identical with their external material bodies.”
Without the right understanding, they turn a wealth of knowledge into a narrow-minded, sectarian teaching with their misinterpretations and shallow realization. As you have explained in this post, if people start experiencing even a little communion with God by realizing how he personally shows off his control over every aspect of our lives, even the so-called trivial ones , it is so engrossing and absorbing that it becomes too much to bear the actual vision of reality, especially in the initial stages, although one starts yearning for it and slowly gets used to it. It is not just the future experiences but also when Krishna re-orders your passt experiences in life and shows you how he has been with you all along – then, you are like a python who has swallowed a huge prey and unable to move – your mind is unable to move from that vision where you realize that your mind is just like a cinema screen where Krishna is in control of what are projected as thoughts – and where he starts projecting the re-interpreted sequence of events and what you perceived in one way is now shown differently to you – all this is breath-taking, brings a lot of joy that God was, is, and will always be with you and that you can never commit any sin or for that matter, neither help nor harm anyone else, such an experiential realization is overwhelming at the same time with the realization that you are never alone with a cauldron of emotions.
Krishna teaches in various ways so that the jiva’s natural love of Godhead is awakened. In this whole scheme of things, what is derided as maha-maya by many is also one of the most-merciful aspects of Krishna. Radha is none other than Krishna and Durga is the same person as Radha. Without this maha-maya, living entities will not be able to digest/swallow the actual reality – ontological nature of itself, its relation with God, etc.., She is like the kindergarten teacher (again, not with a negative connotation but on a positive note to emphasize that maya is where all the jivas start their journey) who provides various illusions making us forget the actual reality but impels us to seek reality with her merciful goading – cyclic nature of pleasure and pain, birth and death, etc.
Or a crude analogy – maybe, maya can be compared to the one who applies anaesthesia before a major surgery. Providing anaesthesia makes one forgetful of reality but that is not something to be derided or feared – without it, a major surgery is not possible. They are all positive aspects of medicine performing different roles, all aimed at the patient’s welfare. When the surgerey is completed, the anaesthetic effect should also not fade off instantaneously – it should fade off gradually till we are ready to live our lives normally after surgery. How merciful is Krishna to keep the jiva in maya till we are ready to live our lives in full cognizance of ourselves and our relation with him?
The jivas are born into ignorance and their avidya is without beginning – maya takes the role of making us identify ourselves with our bodies, makes us see it as reality, fosters attachment with our parents, friends, wife, children, etc.., then with the cycle of birth and death, she puts us in pleasure and pain and other dualities, making us wonder – why all this happens? and slowly leading us to the reality of the ontological nature of things. Getting an inking of realization, the jiva maybe intimidated by the initial glimpses into reality and might feel stunned with such an eye-opener as to how God communicates with us and very much deeply and closely involved with the affairs of this so-called material world.
During all these stages, maya stays with us so as to give us a break, so to speak, till we are able to relate with God directly. If maya or Durga is not God’s mercy, what else could be? How can one negate or deride this merciful aspect of God? After all, maya is the one who has taught us the concept of pleasure, albeit temporary, through this identification of our human bodies and attachments via the same, and eventually propelled us to wonder “what is the pancea for all problems?”
Contemporary preachers are fond of calling everyone as devotees of Krishna (ya prabhu, read that Bramha Samhita verse – it says Durga is a devotee and servant of Krishna) without ever realizing that Durga is none other than Radha and also without realizing that without her grace and illusory potency, we would be paralyzed like Arjuna upon seeing Krishna’s viswarupa darshan. They turn sadhana to sound something like Krishna wants to see our sincerity (yup, so chant more rounds, do this do that, etc..,) and whether we use our free-will properly and if someone ‘falls’ down, then blame it on Maya – learn how powerful she is and better stick with our group. You can only conquer her by Krishna’s grace as if they are two different persons. She is not there to punish you for misuse of freewill till you come to your senses. Durga is another merciful aspect of Krishna to teach us and shield us from reality till we are ready to face it.
Seeker said:
I just wanted to provide a link to this well-known optical illusion for fun.
http://opticalillusion.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/old-woman-and-young-lady-illusion-the-original/
The drawing is the same and whether you look at the young lady or the old woman depends on how you perceive it. Material and spiritual worlds do not differ by their underlying substance but by our perception.
Vrajabhumi said:
Seeker
I lot of good points you go through. When Prabhupada’s followers get upset over Durga puja at ISKCON temples, claiming it’s demigod worship, they’re showing a basic lack of understanding of Durga-tattva according to Gaudiya siddhanta. Prabhupada would say she’s a “demigod,” and that people only worship her for material benefit. Neither which is true. Many people worship devas for material benefit, but also they do the same in their worship of Krishna, Rama, Narayana, Mahadeva—or even their gurus, like Prabhupada. We see many people worship Prabhupada so they can get material benefit, e.g. ISKCON leaders.
That doesn’t mean that Durga puja is inherently materialistic anymore than Radha Krishna puja is materialistic. It seems Prabhupada’s followers tend to put her into the same category as Indra. As Jiva Goswami mentions, and quotes, Durga is none other than Radha Krishna. What that means is that she’s the personification of paramatma’s actions when dealing with conditioned souls. Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains in Jaiva Dharma:
Those quotes you brought up are mentioned by Jiva Goswami in his commentary to Brahma Samhita 5.3. Here is the whole thing:
Paul said:
Far out. After fifteen years of trying to please Krsna in acbsp’s line and chanting well over 50,000 rounds, I’m been so distraught over Krsna’s neglect, to me and everyone, and with such awful devotee scandals, and ever-increasing animal slaughter wrecking the planet, that I went back to mayavada and materialistic atheism. Does this mean Krsna has me as a demon? Surely that’s f-&#ed up. He’s the one who would not communicate and seems imaginary or like a creep.
Cacofonix said:
Excellent post Seeker. Thanks a ton.
Thanks
Cacofonix
Vrajabhumi said:
Paul (Pandu Das)
I remember reading your blog feed some time back on Planet ISKCON saying you had lost faith to some degree, I wasn’t sure if you had completely lost faith, but it seems you have. Your reasons seems mostly to do with how this world is run. That is one of the classic atheist arguments for there being no god, i.e if god exists then why so much suffering? Why doesn’t god show himself is another of the classic arguments you mention. Since atheists don’t believe in god, my answer won’t be accepted by them, but here it is:
The world is run the way it is because god needs to produce a reality which can seem godless. There are people on a certain level of spiritual evolution who need to be atheists, if god was in your face for everyone, then that wouldn’t be possible. God is “in my face” all of the time, I (and others) couldn’t not see god if I tried. But for many others the opposite is true. For them, faith wouldn’t be good for their evolution. God makes them faithless for their own good.
An example of this dichotomy is evolution vs. creationism or intelligent design. Some people see evolution as completely unbelievable because they see the idea of matter spontaneously transforming into the mind-boggling beauty and complexity of life to be absurd. Others see just the opposite, they see the idea of a god existing to be unbelievable and absurd, so they readily believe a scientific sounding explanation for life.
When you’re ready, the truth will be revealed to you. Eventually you’ll see all the problems of this world to be not what they apparently seem to be.
Steve Harvell said:
This article and the above reply has just BLOWN me away! I was so filled with awe at the TRUTH spoken here that I had to get up from my computer three times and take a 5 minute break. Beautiful and glowing, making the truth known to me after 59 years of looking for the truth.
Thank you!
Steve Harvell
Vrajabhumi said:
Steve
Your comment was late being posted because it was sent into my spam folder for some reason. It’s been over a year since your last comments, happy to be of service.
Married to Uncertainty said:
Vrajabhumi,
Thanks for this very interesting article. However understanding( realizing ) how Shri Krishna is in control or maybe even who is Shri Krishna is different than simply accepting it.
We ,normal ordinary humans cannot live with uncertainty, hence we need to beleive that there is someone/something in control/charge. It is usually God, or Guru, some father figure, or Government(not so much in U.S), or some experts or even laws of economics. Or nowadays, the IMF, or ECB will save EU or maybe leaders of Germany, France will, they are in control.
Such faith is out of fear and ignorance, not out of knowledge. So one may believe Shri Krishna is looking after me, taking care of me, and that is correct and it is good, but its born out from insecurity.
Spiritual practice done right, eventually gives such an internal strength that one dosen’t need to cling/take shelter of these things. Rather one can actually see how Shri Krishna is acting directly and this is out of knowledge, not out of fear/insecurity.
Here is a verse from the Uddhava Gita 11th Canto of the Bhagavatam.
“When consciousness becomes clear and the senses are detached from matter, one experiences fearlessness within the material body and detachment from the material mind. You should understand this situation to be the predominance of the mode of goodness, in which one has the opportunity to realize Me.”
or the popular one ” satvam yad bramha darshanam ”
What do you think?
Vrajabhumi said:
Married to Uncertainty
People believe in God to varying degrees for various reasons, some are probably as you mention. Sadhana or spiritual practice (done right), especially shravanam (listening), gives people the knowledge, like you said, on how to see Krishna’s control (within you and outside you). Although spiritual practice doesn’t give people realization of God, realization comes from revelation from paramatma/antaryami. Sadhana lays the groundwork to make revelation easier to understand.
Married to Uncertainty said:
Vrajabhumi,
Thank you for the insightful reply. I had a discussion regarding this concept of how Shri Krishna is in charge of everything with a devotee. According to him, it is very important that we keep on trying to achieve something, although it is not in our control ( particularly trying to be Krishna Conscious/ or distributing books or whatever) so that we understand how difficult it is to try to do everything on our own. By experiencing the frustration, one will finally let go and surrender to SHri Krishna. And usually this was the justification given for going out and distributing books so that one can understand how limited one is by experiencing rejection/helplessness.
Even in ancient times Gurus used to ask their disciples to beg for food and many times they would have to face rejection and frustration.
I am skeptical if this approach may always work. Instead of getting frustrated and developing detachment and letting go, something else may happen, like becoming angry and giving up even the spiritual path. Or maybe becoming greedy and resorting to unethical means to achieve the goal.
But in the shastra we can see this method. E.g Pingala in the 11th Canto was trying so hard for customers and finally she got frustrated and detachment awakened in her heart. Also the king Chitraketu who wanted a son. Then there is king AIla, in 11th Canto.
So its both ways. I guess it may work in certain cases and may not work in others.
You recommend shravanam, hearing from the scriptures/ realized souls, but I also find an issue with that.
I read about the history of ISKCON in an excellent book ” Betrayal of the Spirit” – Nori Muster. This was in 1980s, many devotees read the Bhagavatam many times. The authoress mentions that she herself read it 3 times. As you mention in your blog the translations and BBT purports are incorrect, but even given that, the message of the Bhagavata still can be understood in some ways, it can’t be obscured completely.
But how many of these devotees got purified ? I don’t know what they read, what came out was simply madness. Cultured people who have never seen the Bhagavatam probably wouldn’t make such mistakes.
What I mean to say is , proper spiritual practice is probably not that easy and straightforward. It involves lot of trial and error.
In my experience shravanam does help, but things are not that simple.
The stories we hear of something that worked, I don’t think can be used as a formula, because for it to work, a certain circumstance/ situation is needed which is generally beyond ones control.
So the point I was trying to make is, that the spiritual path is full of uncertainties, there is no fixed formula. Hence the formula given by any institution like 16 rounds 4 regs or attending the Church every Sunday or reading one hour of Bhagavatam everyday or whatever may not work.
What do you think? If you see logical fallacies/foolishness/dogma/misunderstanding in this post please feel free to point it out.
Thanks.
Vrajabhumi said:
Married to Uncertainty
I’ve never heard of what you described a devotee telling you about experiencing rejection as some type of necessary prerequisite for spiritual advancement. Traditionally it’s taught that sravanam, hearing spiritual knowledge, is the first and foremost spiritual practice and prerequisite for spiritual realization. That’s why finding a spiritual master and submitting to his instruction was such an essential teaching in shastra. It wasn’t serving the guru that gave you spiritual advancement, that was simply payment for services received, tuition to your teacher. The spiritual advancement came from learning what the spiritual master had to say.
I’ve written a lot on guru-tattva, my main point has been how guru-tattva has changed over time in order to incorporate the reality of modern vs. ancient scriptural availability. In the time when the shastra was written, books were very rare, they had to be hand copied, and few people had the necessary skills to read them proficiently. There were ashrams where books were stored, and where dedicated brahmins would learn them, maybe copy some, and from there the knowledge would spread out from master to disciples. But the average person didn’t have the skill or availability of studying books. They were dependent on spiritual teachers, brahmins, and gurus, speaking the knowledge to them.
Shastra stresses the vital importance of a guru as the prerequisite for enlightenment, but that was mainly due to the reality most people faced in the world when shastra was written: most people lacked the ability to study the shastra directly, therefore they needed someone to teach them. Obviously that’s no longer true.
Gurus today usually do as much or more harm than good, often fostering a bogus ideology which has your spiritual advancement directly proportionate to your level of service to them—as if spiritual advancement is something they can give to you, like a monetary transaction, e.g. you get a hat and t-shirt with a logo if you pay the cashier. The idea is that you get enlightenment if you pay for it, payment is done by pleasing the guru. The power is in the guru, not in the teachings. It used to be the kripa (mercy) of the guru was his ability and willingness to teach you shastra, now it’s become the ability and willingness of the guru to allow you to serve him. It’s by that service attitude by which you can get enlightenment magically transferred to you, as if you’re a robot with a hard drive for a brain that simply needs to have the “mercy” downloaded into you, and then, voilà! You has got enlightenment.
Vrajabhumi said:
Married to Uncertainty
The stories from shastra you mention are about how frustration can lead to detachment and an interest in a more spiritual or philosophical outlook. Those stories were about people who were absorbed in sensual pursuits, materialistic pursuits, with little to no regard for their spiritual side. Through frustration with their materialistic path, they developed an interest in a more spiritual path. But in order for them to advance spiritually they would then need to learn spiritual knowledge, they would need to hear it from somewhere.
The devotee you mentioned was on about something different. There we have someone who was already detached from a materialistic centered life, someone who already had devoted him/herself to the spiritual path, who was already spending time hearing and learning spiritual knowledge, however misguided it is. You wrote:
That’s not the same message of the stories from shastra you mentioned, really it’s the opposite message. The point of the stories is to inspire people to not neglect the spiritual side of life because that’s the only thing that can bring a higher lasting happiness. They’re all about people giving up one outlook and path, a purely materialistic one, for a higher spiritual one. What your devotee friend is advocating is persevering in your path in order to experience frustration so that you can understand you are dependent on God, and by that you will surrender to Krishna. The point of those stories from shastra is to warn you against going down that path, not promoting that path.
You brought up your doubt in sravanam; why it seems that so many people study shastra or hear spiritual knowledge, but don’t seem to spiritually advance; or even give up the spiritual path. Everyone has their own path in life, with different experiences they need to go through depending on their level of conscious and subconscious spirituality. Therefore people are on different levels of preparedness to fully understand the implications of whatever spiritual knowledge they hear or learn. It’s not that the potency isn’t in sravanam, it is, but the full array of spiritual realization sravanam provides is kept from people until they are ready for it.
You said:
I don’t think it’s uncertainties or no fixed formula, it may appear that way, but really it’s just that some people are more ready than others. Not everyone is ready for everything at the same time. The formula is simple, and therefore due to the nature of it’s simplicity—it’s fixed, i.e. only by listening to and learning spiritual knowledge can you become self-realized. There is no other way to attain it, everything else (other sadhana or experiences) is an adjunct of sravanam.
Gustre We said:
Btw, this is my response to your websites in general. I didn’t quite know where to post my comment… so I put it here. It is my response to your stance in general, and may not be article specific.
So here goes…
A western is like a dog’s tail. You can keep it in a straight pipe for a hundred years in the vain hope of straightening it… but no, that’s never going to happen is it. Thanks for proving this theorem.
Not that you caught us unawares, we know… our acharyas know, always knew, and are not about to forget.
And oh, I am an Indian, if that is there is any doubt to it.
Yeah, we had forgotten… and therefore needed westerners to propel OUR ideologies forward… make it seem attractive to ourselves… we needed you to carry it for a while, like a coolie… So, thanks, and here is a nickel.
Now get lost! Leave Krishna, who you will never understand, leave Prabhupada, leave our tradition and teachings alone. Go back to your decedent ways.
White skin means meleecha… and that is all there is to it. Whatever made you think brahminical traditions were mean for you? A white brahmana is a joke a repugnant concept… we see one and wonder what the craziness is going on in his or her decedent little head!
Please do not take offence. I am merely being frank and open… just as you have been.
Finally, I am amused that you, Vrajabhumi, are actually trying to seriously preach Vaishnavism here on this site…!!
Vrajabhumi said:
Gustre We
Gustre We said:
Clearly, you are a Narayan Maharaja’s disciples. I have read some of your posts and disagree with your theme which is: Narayan Maharaja taught us more… Prabhupada… just the basics. Vaishnavism is about love, blah, blah, blah… Prabhupada focused on sadhana frown upon vesha…
We should be discussing intimate pastime… imitating…roll-playing gopis… so we can get it down pat… hit Goloka on the run, without missing a step.
Yeah right! Krishna is waiting for you with open arms!!
But… it is true. Srila Prabhupada disapproved of it and rejected it although Thakur Bhakti Vinod himself practiced it.
The reason why he rejected it is because he didn’t think it worthwhile. Meaning, considered it an illegitimate development in GV. Or, it was a legitimate development in GV that didn’t pan out. Either way, as an acharya it was well within his powers to reject it.
I mean, do you really think he didn’t know about siddha-pranali, siddha-deha, etc? Or, that he didn’t know how to process it, streamline it for his western disciples? And what he didn’t know, Narayan Maharaja, who was his junior, knew?? What are you… stupid or something?
No, he rejected it… and thank God for that!
Can you imagine the madness it would have created? Westerners are already there… chaffing at the ropes… cross dressing, sexing it up and what not. Give them this… and the shit will hit the fan!
SP was smart cookie. Intellectually far superior to Narayan maharaja or ten of his kind tied together. Morally too he was far superior. What then to speak of his spiritual qualifications.
You ought to know it, and you know what… I think you probably do. But then
Narayan’s version is better suited to you… your business. Meaning, you are materialist at heart… an opportunist out here for a little material gain…
I have read some of your posts; they are well written. But sadly your intelligence is contaminated. You don’t care for Krishna or Radha… all you care for is a little material gain. And for this you would even stoop to malign a true-blue acharya…! Where I wonder would you go.
Vrajabhumi said:
Gustre We
http://harekrishnawomen.wordpress.com/tag/narayana-maharaja/
Married to Uncertainty said:
Vrajabhumi,
Thanks for taking the time to give such a clear and well written reply.
I agree that everyone is not on the same level and hence how spiritual life may develop is unpredictable.
You mention sharavanam as the primary method and all others as adjunct to shravanam, my understanding is little different and maybe you can comment on it.
I subscribe to the view of Shri Vijnanabhikshu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijnanabhiksu ) the 16th Century Vaishnava Sankhya Yogi who wrote a commentary on Yoga Sutras.
I summarize it here. When one first starts meditating on a form of Shri Vishnu, at first it is a gross image which one imagines/sees as a picture. Because of fixing the mind on Shri Vishnu, the mind slowly starts becoming sattvicized, then the meditation becomes more subtler, slowly the yogi starts understanding the qualities of Shri Vishnu, the misconceptions are slowly dispelled. As things become more fine more things are revealed and when one reaches the final asamprajyata samadhi, when all the conditioning is removed, the yogi can see Shri Vishnu directly.
Vijnanabhikshu adds that this can happen by grace also, Shri Vishnu can Himself award the highest samadhi.
The same can happen by fixing mind on any Shri Vishnu/Krishna mantra/naam.
Hence, my understanding is that absorption of the mind in Shri Krishna is the primary process of self realization. This can primarily from shravanam or dhyanam(chanting with absorption) or as you many times recommend ( even Shri Krishna recommends that as the best way in Uddhava Gita) seeing Shri Krishna in everything and everyone as controller of everything.
Hence, absorption of the mind in Shri Krishna is the primary sadhana which will bestow self and God realization. And these three things are important.
1. shravanam: reading about the necessity of self realization and also reading about Shri Krishna.
2. Dhyanam ( fixing mind on Shri Krishna either through chanting/ meditation) etc
3. Cultivating the understanding that Shri Krishna is present in the heart of all living entities controlling everything and everyone.
Whenever you have time please let me know what you think.
Vrajabhumi said:
Married to Uncertainty
How did you come to these conclusions? Did it just come to you, or did you learn it or hear it from a source? Everything you just said is something you read or heard, i.e. sravanam. That was my point. How would you know about meditating on Krishna or Vishnu unless you heard it? How would you know what Krishna says about seeing him everywhere unless you heard it first?
I don’t think Shri Vijnanabhikshu meant literally what you said, it sounds like a metaphor to me, probably he is using the idea of meditating as a metaphor for a person’s sadhana in total. But then again it could just be an attempt to preach to Advaitins to get them interested in Vishnu or Krishna. Even if he meant as you supposed, if you were only reliant on meditation, still you would have to hear and learn from paramatma, i.e. sravanam—listening to what paramatma teaches you. Knowledge cannot be transferred to you like a download onto a drive, we aren’t storage device machines.
As emotional conscious beings, limited in so many ways, spiritual knowledge must be learned—taught to us, understood and processed, then experienced, in order to become self-realized. It’s no easy thing to understand and experience God in full, to think it can just come to you is a mistake that many people make. They think it will be easy or not take too long, when they don’t get the results they want in the time they expected, they can lose faith altogether because they thought it would be easy because they were told it would be.
Madhavananda Das, the ex-owner of a few popular Gaudiya forums, is a good example of someone who didn’t get what he expected in the time he expected, then lost faith in the path, and even in God at one point (don’t know about today). There are many like him, ex-bhaktas who didn’t get what they thought they would get because they expected too much too fast, which is unhealthy for your development unless you’re ready. If enlightenment could just be handed out like treats, don’t you think Krishna would do that? I’m not saying that you’re saying that, it’s just a point I want to make about the nature of enlightenment—learning the truth and how to deal is the key and the essence, really that is all there is, there are no shortcuts. Everything else is about aiding that, e.g. chanting can aid in your faith and also strengthens your power of concentration and perception, although too much can tire you out and have the opposite effect.
Married to Uncertainty said:
Vrajabhumi,
Thank you for the reply. Here are some of my thoughts. You made good points, and here is my follow up.
Yes, I agree shravanam is absolutely necessary. Spirutal life starts with shravanam, it is nourisehed by shravanam and later shravanam becomes a source of great pleasure for the advanced devotee.
However one cannot discount the importance of experience. Otherwise it will be like the institutionalized religion where most simply read the scripture and preach it and very few have actually experienced any of it.
I doubt if it is a metaphor, because I had some personal experience of it, I mean I didn’t see Shri Krishna, but what usually happens is, one starts understanding that what ones conception of Shri Krishna is incorrect, Shri Krishna is actually way different.
You say we arent storage machines and knowledge cannot be downloaded, and that is correct. However many texts say that knowledge is the inherent characteristic of the self(soul). In Uddhava Gita Shri Krishna classifies knowledge in sattva guna as knowledge of the self and beyond sattva guna as knowledge of Himself. So spirituality can be seen as a process of using knowledge to uncover knowledge hidden within us all.
For example ,The Buddha( and probably some Tibetian yogis) by mediation have gained knowledge of their past births.
One may say that the Parmatma gave them the knowledge, and that is fine since anyways everything is controlled by Him, or one may say that Parmatma has invested the atman with the knowledge potency.
Either way, spiritual practices awakens knowledge and this isn’t just limited to Bhakti Yoga, but also say Zen Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Sufi practices etc.
I am not saying that simply meditation one can see Shri Krishna by one’s efforts, it depends upon when He wants to show Himself, but meditation helps in seeing Him in everything and everyone, it also gradually starts removing the mis-identification with the body and the mind.
You say that spiritual knowledge must be taught, that is true generally, but there are many exceptions both in Puranas and in history. Who taught St Francis of Assisi? He had some spontaneous realization. Narada Muni simply told the bandit Ratnakar to chant the name of Shri Rama, and by single minded absorption in Shri Rama he got all knowledge, and became the great Valmiki. Yes, these are exceptional cases and it cannot be generalized, and for everyday people it is essential to learn things properly.
Pratyaksha (direct experience) is considered the highest pramana( proof) in Indian philosophy. Well actually, Para Pratyaksha or direct spiritual vision. By hearing the faith certainly increases, but direct experience removes all doubts. I am not saying getting a direct experience is easy, but it is essential. As you put it nicely, such things cannot be expected to happen in a short time and may take a long time.
You gave an example of a devotee who expected something, well expecting fantastic things in a short time is very idealistic and hence was dissapointed. Spiritual practice should not be done to achieve some set goal which one’s mind has fabricated. It should come naturally, just like someone likes to play/try out basketball.
But spiritual practice usually bring about an increased sense of well being, security and calmness, this everyone can experience. Even these days Managers do meditation for stress relief and they experience something positive. And when someone experiences something positive out of spiritual practice they want to naturally continue with it.
Swami Hariharananda Aranya a hardcore sankhya yogi, in his commentary on the Yoga sutras mentions the importance of how some kind of experience can strengthen faith. He recommends meditating on the tip of the nose for 7 days to experience supernatural sense of smell. Apparently he did that, and that increased his faith that the scriptures work.
Mantra meditation (or any kind of meditation) done right, I think, is also very essential because it brings the mind to sattva guna in which knowledge is slowly awakened.
Thanks for your patience.
Vrajabhumi said:
Married to Uncertainty
I wasn’t disagreeing with all those things, my point was that of all things sravanam is the most essential, it’s the key and irreplaceable aspect of sadhana. No one should think they are special like some famous mystic and expect everything to magically come to them, that isn’t helpful for them here and now. In sastra sravanam is always given prime importance. The Gita is the prime example of what is most necessary—hearing from Krishna. Of course experience is important, but that can’t be practiced, it isn’t sadhana, it’s given to you. Also, in sastra there are stories that aren’t always literally true, they still serve a purpose. For people who need to have more faith in chanting they can hear that by chanting everything will magically be revealed, but what happens is that their mental focus and perception is strengthened; their faith may increase due to mystical interaction; and the goal of that fantastic promise was achieved—to get them to a higher level. Much of sastra serves that function.
Married to Uncertainty said:
Vrajabhumi,
Thank you for summing it up. What you have written, I think, makes sense.