This is a reply to a comment from Bhavaprema to the Jaiva Dharma post. He gave a link to a Dilbert comic strip over at Dandavats.com, it has to do with the brain and free will. After that is an article on free will by Kesava Krsna Das.
The comic made a good point, the author of that comic is a pretty smart guy, although a lot of people dislike him because of his support of Intelligent Design. I skimmed through the article by (the ever so self-assured Speculatron 9000 of the ISKCON web world) Kesava Krsna Das and the discussion that ensued in the comments. You can see the confusion caused by Prabhupada, none of them seem to have a firm grasp of what they believe or want to say. The problem is that on the one hand the unofficial ISKCON dogma is that we have free will, Prabhupada said it a lot, as do ISKCON leaders; on the other hand we have all the shastric verses saying in essence that we don’t have free will, that we’re not the doer, that antaryami is in control of us and guides us from within, that paramatma is in control of everything and therefore everything is a direct manifestation of God, etc.
In the discussion that ensues to that article you can see a common misunderstanding about the ontology of the jiva (taught by Prabhupada and ISKCON) used to promote the idea of our free will. The very first commenter quotes Prabhupada:
Swedish man (3): Is there free will?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like you are sitting here. If you don’t like, you can go away. That’s your free will. There is free will. Because we are part and parcel of God, God is completely free to do anything. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we have got minute quantity of freedom. Just like a drop of ocean water, it is also salty, but the quantity of salt in that drop is not equal to the salt in the ocean. Similarly, you have got a little quantity of freedom, but not as freedom as God has got. That is not possible. You are subordinate. Your freedom is subordinate to God’s freedom. Therefore if you misuse your freedom, then you become punishable. The government gives you freedom, but if you misuse your freedom, if you violate the laws, then you are criminal. Yes? >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 7.1-3 — Stockholm, September 10, 1973
What he’s teaching is pure sophistry, there is no good analogy between a drop of water in the ocean and the ocean when it comes to abilities or qualities. That analogy only works for less complex comparisons, e.g. the water in the drop and in the ocean is like the soul within God, both exist together as one, two conscious being in one, but one is the whole and existing and encompassing far and wide, and very powerful—while the other is a small part of the whole, and very weak in comparison.
The jiva in no way contains all the qualities of God in minute quantities, although that’s a very common fallacy taught in ISKCON. God has many abilities we simply don’t possess, for example, the ability to control memory. We don’t have the ability to bring up memories, all we do when we want a specific memory is desire it to appear, it then appears or not. What else can we do? We don’t have direct access or control over our memories. You can’t have free will without control over memories because everything we know, and know how to do—is because of memory. How can you understand language (which is part of the thought process) without memory? How can you move your body in a coordinated fashion without memory? How can you do practically anything you do without memory? Newborn babies are the way they are because they are without memory—that is how we would be without memory. Unless we control our own memory, we do not have free will.
Without control over what we know, there is no way to have free will. We are dependent on Krishna at every moment for our memory. What we do from moment to moment is entirely based upon our memory—how would you know what to do next if you didn’t know what day it is, who you are, where you are, what you are, what you planned on doing, or even what words mean or how to comprehend anything in your environment? Krishna says that he gives you memory, and he takes it away when you don’t need it, and he gives you knowledge, from within: sarvasya cāhaḿ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaḿ ca—I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness.
People who believe God isn’t involved in our lives to that degree believe our memories our controlled by our brain. People who aren’t in that scientific field believe that it’s been proven conclusively that our brain, through some process, controls our memories. The reality is that scientists working in that field don’t actually know how memory functions. They believe they know the basic parts and what parts serve what function, but when it comes to explaining how a memory is stored from your experience, or how it’s retrieved to your mind, they’re still searching.
How does a brain, an unconscious machine, know what you want? Say you’re reading this and you get hungry and try to remember what you ate at your friends house last night that you liked so much. How does your brain know that? It’s logically impossible that your brain can understand your thoughts. It would need to comprehend the language of your thoughts, AND the concepts of your thoughts like: what does dinner mean? A computer could do that for your speech because a computer has a dictionary and voice recognition software. How can a brain recognize and search for the meaning of the words? It doesn’t have the ability to do that, even if it could store memories and retrieve them for you.
Think about how you’re comprehending these words. How would you’re brain be able to see these words, search in some storage area for the meaning of the words you’re reading, then make them understood to your conscious awareness, all done instantly? But before we even get that far it first has to be aware of the thoughts, aware of the needs implied in your thoughts, aware of the need in your unconscious emotional state—essentially it has to have a hyper aware, super smart, super empathic mind of it’s own to know what you want, or what you need, when you want or need it. A computer only works because it’s been created and programmed specifically for that task, and even then it doesn’t work on it’s own, it needs to be asked for information. We don’t ask our brain, it supposedly just knows what we want when we want it. The amazing thinking brain? I don’t think so. People don’t always remember what they want when they want it. Why? With a computer it always works because it’s been programmed to work, the computer isn’t deciding what to give you or what to withhold. But it appears our brain decides what and when to give us the information we desire or need, why? and how?
The scientists say they’re working on it, they don’t know how the brain does all those things, but they think they know the information is stored in certain places and moves along certain pathways, all the other details are still a mystery. And they will remain so. I’ve written a bit more on this topic at Things They Would Not Teach Me Of In College.
The topic of free will often causes confusion between Prsbhupada’s followers because they feel they have to agree with Prabhupada, even if they see the contradiction with shastra, and often-times with himself, i.e. Prabhupada will often teach something one way, and then teach it in a contradictory way elsewhere—for example his teaching on the origin of the jiva has caused a debate for years and years simply because he sometimes said you can and did fall from Goloka, and other times said you can never fall from Goloka, and also that you originated from Brahman.
They even made an official ISKCON law that you cannot contradict what Prabhupada taught on the origin of the jiva, which they then exemplify in the two contradictory teachings Prabhupada taught. The law is senseless because if you teach either one without also teaching the other, then you are in violation of ISKCON law. Here is the law:
Vaikuntha is that place from which no one ever falls down. The living entity belongs to Lord Krishna’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). On this we all agree. The origin of the conditioned life of the souls now in this material world is undoubtedly beyond the range of our direct perception. We can therefore best answer questions about that origin by repeating the answers Srila Prabhupada gave when such questions were asked of him:
“The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)
No ISKCON devotee shall present or publish any contrary view as conclusive in any class or seminar or any media (print, video, electronic, etc.).
Why did Prabhupada teach in a contradictory way at times? I believe it was because he felt it would inspire people in a certain way. Prabhupada said we have free will, but he also would teach that we don’t, for example:
Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 13.30
One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees.
PURPORT
This body is made by material nature under the direction of the Supersoul, and whatever activities are going on in respect to one’s body are not his doing. Whatever one is supposed to do, either for happiness or for distress, one is forced to do because of the bodily constitution. The self, however, is outside all these bodily activities. This body is given according to one’s past desires. To fulfill desires, one is given the body, with which he acts accordingly. Practically speaking, the body is a machine, designed by the Supreme Lord, to fulfill desires. Because of desires, one is put into difficult circumstances to suffer or to enjoy. This transcendental vision of the living entity, when developed, makes one separate from bodily activities. One who has such a vision is an actual seer.
Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 3.27
The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.
PURPORT
Two persons, one in Krishna consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Krishna. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such his bodily and mental activities should be engaged in the service of Krishna, in Krishna consciousness. The ignorant man forgets that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Hrishīkeśa, or the master of the senses of the material body, for due to his long misuse of the senses in sense gratification, he is factually bewildered by the false ego, which makes him forget his eternal relationship with Krishna.
I don’t know what Prabhupada really believed because of the contradictory teachings, possibly he believed we don’t have free will but would say we do so that his followers would feel responsible for being in this world, and conversely responsible for getting out, i.e. only by your choice to surrender to Krishna (through ISKCON) can you become free from future suffering in your next life. Someone may think that if we don’t have free will then there is no urgent need to surrender to ISKCON, whereas Prabhupada was always preaching the urgent necessity to not only surrender to ISKCON, but also to strictly follow all his rules and regulations and give up all desire for sensual pleasures (including entertainment).
Prabhupada’s preaching strategy was to put the jiva (human) in control of it’s destiny to a large degree. It’s by the choice of the jiva to: follow a guru, follow Krishna, renounce sensual pleasures, renounce all things disconnected to sadhana-bhakti, etc. Sure, Krishna is the ultimate controller, but when it comes to our own destiny, we are the controllers because we choose what path we go down in life, creating good and bad karma as we go. In fact we have so much control of our destiny that the reason we are in this world of suffering and death is because of our own choice.
That ideology is contradictory to what Prabhupada’s guru taught on destiny. He taught that no one can change anyone else’s destiny, no one can change anything at all of the destiny of this world. In ISKCON you hear the exact opposite taught. The mood and message of ISKCON is not only contradictory to Bhaktisiddhanta’s mood and message—ISKCON is completely centered around that contradiction.
In ISKCON the main thrust and mood of their self-defined reason to exist is in their ability to not just affect people’s lives or destiny, but in actually changing the course of people’s lives, changing the course of the cultural norms in society at large, and changing the course of it’s own destiny. Prabhupada taught that it’s by their efforts that a worldwide nuclear cataclysm was averted. They instil in their followers the idea that you have the ability to not only save people from going to some type of hell, but also you actually have the ability to save the entire planet from a dire fate that awaits.
Not only can you change other people’s and the entire world’s destiny, ISKCON’s fate itself is in our hands i.e. by your choosing to surrender and work hard for ISKCON it will succeed or not. A famous dictum in ISKCON is Prabhupada’s statement that the only thing which can stop ISKCON is a lack of cooperation among it’s members, that ISKCON can only be destroyed from within. Yet also they teach that ISKCON is predicted to last 10,000 years. This kind of contradictory philosophy is common in ISKCON, and in people who are educated by them.
The idea of having no free will, of there being a destiny set in stone that cannot be altered, for everyone and the world, seems so counter-intuitive only because we are ignorant on how we function. In fact, the world and ourselves have been fooled, on purpose. It’s not easy to come to terms with the reality of having no control, of there being a controller over everything you do and think, and of what everyone else does and thinks. When we’re ready, all the truths of God’s ontological presence and control in our lives is gradually revealed to us. Usually through religious philosophy, and ultimately through Vedanta.
a indian said:
CONGRATS VRAJABHUMI. Russia Bans ISKCON Bhagavad Gita .
You should be writing a article about this and send to congress members or call them up in toll free number. Get ISKCON Gita banned in USA also..(fight and die for it)
I now see why Russians are better than Americans, There is no occupy protests, there is no joblessness, there is no criminal Bhagavad Gita!!
Whole of US is corrupted by banksters and corrupt politicians who support ISKCON for political means- to make wealthy wealthier and poor poorer. Support 99% and not 1% – who try to control beliefs of remaining 99% as well..
Fight for it Vrajabhumi. Let the fire spread. Revolution. is inevitable. Let the Kurukshetra war begin where criminals are crushed down!!
Vrajabhumi said:
a indian
It hasn’t been banned, they put the court date off for another week. One thing the Tomsk prosecutors and others involved with trying to ban Prabhupada’s Gita (and afterwards the rest of ISKCON if successful) is that they certainly didn’t expect the reaction they must be receiving from Russian higher authorities. They probably thought ISKCON was some insignificant sect which no one but it’s members cared about. Their rude awakening is now evident, Indians care, lot’s of very powerful Indians all over the world, especially in India. As I’ve said before, ISKCON is a very big deal in India, and in the worldwide Indian disapora. Attacking ISKCON always ends with Indian government and Indian business support for ISKCON, usually shocking the people who attack ISKCON because they didn’t realize what ISKCON is on a worldwide scale. The case is being broadcast all over the world in various media, all in support ISKCON, due to the Indian support. I would be surprised if ISKCON loses, if they do that would mean the Russian federal government wants to get rid of ISKCON, otherwise I’m sure the government is sending a message to the Tomsk prosecutors office to make the bad publicity go away. I can’t see why the Russian government would care about ISKCON, especially enough to anger influential Indians.
I don’t know if you’ve been to America, ISKCON temples in America are not supported by anything more than the local congregations. Almost exclusively from the Indian community. I’m sure some of them are bankers, or maybe even politicians from India (although I’ve never heard of that), mostly it’s just the local Indian community supporting the local temples because they provide a service for the Indian community. Unlike India, the Hindu community doesn’t have a lot of choices for Hindu religious or cultural activities in America, so ISKCON has become supported for that reason. Most of the Hindu congregation aren’t really much interested in Prabhupada or his books anymore than any other guru. Most of them aren’t actually devoted followers of Prabhupada, many aren’t Vaishnavas, most are there to socialize and expose their kids to Hindu culture.
gm said:
>> Whole of US is corrupted by banksters and corrupt politicians who support ISKCON for political means- to make wealthy wealthier and poor poorer. Support 99% and not 1% – who try to control beliefs of remaining 99% as well..
Not sure what “a indian” means here. May be he saw some US politician visiting Iskcon center. I think US politicians especially democrats visit some Indian events. I have seen many of them in India’s independence day celebration… Can’t call them corrupt because of that.
Also, don’t understand corrupt banksters. Iskcon temples are generally always asking for me and are not doing good. Don’t know what kind of bankster he is referring to.
a indian said:
“Bhagavad Gita As It Is” could become a turning point in India-Russia Relation.. (Russia could take serious note of this and ban all future India relations)
For few rich people of India(who serve corporate America)- millions of Indians will suffer.
a indian said:
to gm,
>>Not sure what “a indian” means here.
May be you need to google what is happening in US and all other countires now. This is what happens when man turns religious. Your General knowledge on politics is very low.
Seeker said:
Hi Vrajabhumi,
I think Prabhupada’s legacy is in the safe hands of ISKCON gurus. I have not come across even Prabhupada saying such stuff that Bhakti Charu Swami has done a couple of days ago in his lecture. I wonder when more law suits are going to be thrown at for such unwarranted racial remarks or slurs against other religion in ISKCON temples. On one hand it is hilarious but then, on second thoughts, I really pity the lives of those who are taking initiation from such people, dedicate their lives, and delude themselves that those gurus are the captains guiding the ship to cross this material ocean, as they prefer to put it – truth is that the ship has never left the harbor. God save both the guru and the disciple from each other’s ignorance.
http://www.bcswami.com/2011/12/20/the-supreme-lord-krishna-picks-out-thorns-with-thorns
1) Sinful people take birth in desert
2) Why Calcutta was not bombed during WWII?
Vrajabhumi said:
Seeker
Typical for ISKCON to promote a special mystic cause for something when in fact the opposite of that is what they’re supposed to be teaching, i.e. everything is going on according to Krishna’s plan. When Krishna says he knows the future, that isn’t because he has special psychic powers, it’s because he’s in control of everyone and everything and has everything planned out far in advance. As far as why didn’t Japan attack Calcutta, it’s no big secret, they were losing the war in the Pacific against America and the allies, they needed to withdraw from attacking India in order to replenish the massive losses they were suffering in the Pacific theater. By the time they were ready for their planned attack on India in 1944, they had to change their plans after attacking the far eastern state of Nagaland. They didn’t take into account the fact that America would rebuild their Pacific fleet so fast and put so much energy into fighting them. They had reasoned that America would take much longer, and they wouldn’t really be so eager to fight with Japan. That was Japan’s famous blunder in planning for their attack on America’s Pacific fleet, which was headquartered in Hawaii. What they didn’t know was that America was looking for an excuse to expand into East Asia. Japan gave them an excuse by attacking, and there is evidence that American leaders knew of the coming attack but let it happen because they wanted an excuse to fight Japan in order to take over all the countries Japan had conquered, and the rest is history, e.g. military bases and massive troop presence all throughout East Asia ever since, guaranteeing American political and economic hegemony in East Asia at the barrel of a gun.
Bhakti Charu Swami also claims in that lecture that the Soviet Union ended because of the devotees. Never mind that the Soviet Union’s end came because they wanted the wealth and freedom of the west, and specifically America. The Soviet Union could have kept going, the fact is the leaders lost faith in their political and economic system, they simply wanted a better life after realizing the west was advancing and doing so much better economically than they were. It wasn’t some magical transformation, they even said they just wanted a better life, and they were sick and tired of fighting with the west. But somehow, it was the devotees who magically changed the destiny of the Soviet Union with fairy dust. Prabhupada’s followers and ISKCON “gurus” say these crazy things sincerely, not realizing how childish and ignorant they seem.
a indian said:
Japanese were exploiting chinese, and FDR wanted freedom for these people. Thats why America attack Asia. FDR didn’t have colonial ambitions. British in America still dream about colonialism, and still practise racism.
Vrajabhumi said:
a indian
Before the Japanese conquered China, China was already a conquered country. It had been dominated over by a consortium of foreign interests for a long time. Even after China became communist the British still ruled over Hong Kong and the Portuguese ruled Macau. After the demise of the last Chinese ruling dynasty in the early 20th century, which was mostly a puppet government of European, Japanese, and American interests, the leading bankers in China (the Soongs and H.H. Kung) along with the leading Triad criminal organization in Shanghai (and China), the Green Gang, with the backing and support of American interests, tried to create a new government (See Sterling Seagraves The Soong Dynasty). It was dressed up in nationalism, but it was really a front for American and British interests, who were close with the Soongs. The British owned Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation (HSBC)–today the 2nd biggest bank, and 2nd biggest publicly traded company in the world—was heavily involved as well, being intimately connected with the opium trade and the Triads from an early time, with the cities Hong Kong and Shanghai being the triad and drug trade centers of China.
The most powerful Triad in China was the “Green Gang,” which was centered in Shanghai. Chiang Kai-shek, who was a member of the Green Gang, eventually became the leader of the Kuomintang, which was it’s political arm and army, taking over from Sun Yat-sen after his death. Most biographies have the Green Gang and the Kuomintang as two separate organizations, but that has to do with threats from the Kuomintang, which became the government of Taiwan, and who don’t like to be exposed as originally, and really still, a confederation of Triad (Chinese mafia) gangs, for example see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14K_Triad. The heroin trade in South East Asia was controlled by the Kuomintang, and aided by the CIA, (see http://www.chiangraitimes.com/news/4771.html)
Sterling Seagrave gave a detailed history in the book mentioned above, of the true history of the region, showing without a doubt the true nature of Chiang and the Kuomintang being part of an American economic conquest of East Asia. The Green Gang transformed into the Kuomintang, Chiang’s nationalist army and political party, but they ended up losing power to the Communists under Mao. They fled to the Golden Triangle area, there they maintained their opium and heroin business (till this day) before invading and taking over Taiwan.
America didn’t care about Chinese freedom, they were part of the colonialists in China exploiting it’s people when Japan took over. America wanted China back, they also wanted Indonesia, the Philippines, and the rest of South East Asia—e.g. the Vietnam war was a continuation of that overall ambition to control East Asia. After China fell to the communists, America’s partners and chosen figureheads for China’s control, Chiang Kai Shek and the Kuomintang/Green Gang, decided to invade and take over Taiwan—it became America’s main outpost—others being Japan, Korea, the Philippines, Indonesia, and South Vietnam which was taken over from the French after WWII.
I got all this from a couple books I read years ago, I know it’s not really real since Krishna is actually in control.
a indian said:
Again there were two possible outcomes- European would have continued genocide for few more decades, before African and Asian slaves would have fought back. To prevent that Hitler showed- the way to do holocaust.
I was just wondering- If Hitler had world power – how long would Indians have lasted?
I suppose 10 yrs- for gassing all 500 million indians?
Hitler wanted a clean earth. Luckily God was on British side. Still Indians feel – Hitler was incarnation of Lord Krishna!!
Michael Schenk said:
Simple response here:
If I have no free will and my destiny is laid out before me (fatalistic thinking), then what the hell is the point of making an effort to do anything? Where does that effort come from?
If you’ve ever done any rigorous training like martial arts, yoga, philosophy, university, you’ll know that there is the application of effort to do things. It’s not just a simple “I desire this, then it appears.” It’s not that simple.
And neither is it as simple as saying we are in charge of our own destinies. I think this article is itself a kind of sophistry, and it doesn’t give any satisfactory answers.
Your claims against scientific understanding of the brain is not nearly as well founded as your claims against ISKCON. Will you please supply more citations for your claims? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but you don’t have nearly as many links in those parts of your article as compared to your (very well done) railings against ISKCON’s contradictions.
The discussion of free will in philosophy and religion is vastly complex, and even those who follow particular scriptures are not entirely sure on what it says.
But at the end of the day my question stands as this. If we have no free will, then define effort. Define that conscious choice we make at the supermarket when we say to ourselves, “I don’t have enough money, I shouldn’t impulse buy on this expensive item.” Define that conscious choice to get out of bed in the morning, the choice that works so well most of the year and yet at some points in time is so difficult. And finally, define for me what gives us the drive to go on when our bodies and minds are so exhausted, that exhilarating state of mind that can only be achieved by will alone, that all martial artists, marathon runners, athletes of all kinds, understand?
Your argument falls flat for me because of this lack of explanation.
Kind regards,
Michael.
Vrajabhumi said:
Michael Schenk
I understand, it’s something I know can happen if you just read one or two of my posts on free will—it’s more complex then what I usually write in a post or two. But, I have answered your questions in other posts. Almost any question you may have I think I have answered already, click on free will on the tag cloud on the right column above, or on the google site search above it. If you have a question that you don’t think I have gone through exhaustively than I’ll try and give a satisfactory answer.
Bhaktivinoda makes an analogy to answer your question about our seeming free will, because that is what you’re really talking about, i.e. it seems like we are the one making a choice to make some kind of effort. Bhaktivinoda talks about how we look at a person’s limb or body moving, and the person controlling it. When you move your arms or legs it’s understood that your legs are not acting independent of a controller, people don’t say “your arm is getting the work done,” they say “you’re getting the work done.” This is how Bhaktivinoda puts it:
The jiva is a shakti of Krishna, we aren’t independent beings able to do as we like, we simply aren’t built like that. It’s not that we don’t make an effort, it’s that we aren’t in control of our thought process, or our decision process, or even our bodily movements. That doesn’t mean we don’t make an effort, it just means we aren’t in control of what we decide to do—like a car makes a lot of effort driving you around, but it’s under the drivers control—antaryami (God within) is our driver, see:
Things They Would Not Teach Me Of In College
Only Love Will Take You There
Devil Inside
Also see:
Through The Looking Glass
Final Fantasy
Seeker said:
I have presented below the understanding that I am currently inspired to strongly believe based on what God has made me to accept through my life experiences and through the previous explanations in this blog (sravanam).
A fatalist will continue to think that people are pre-destined at particular phases of their evolution to believe in free-will. On the contrary, a believer in free-will will find it a compelling and satisfactory explanation to think that people misuse their freewill to believe in fatalism for any number of reasons – they are lazy, they are not analytically sound, etc.., This debate will continue to exist and can never be conclusively proven to the satisfaction of entire mankind or even to two different individuals either by science, philosophy, or both. For some people, Libbet’s experiment proves lack of free-will – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will (Or, this link for example – http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide) and for many others, it is not conclusive.
I have seen some intelligent devotees who subscribe to free-will and go to great length to defend such experimental interpretations because they feel obligated to for many reasons – for example, if you remove free-will out of the equation, then they feel that there is no accountability for people or that they feel that the distinction between devotees vs non-devotees, following of religious vows, whether I should chant my 16 rounds or not, etc.., – all that goes for a toss. Even when people move outside ISKCON and gain some sanity, it is difficult for ISKCON to get out of them. Even when they grow beyond the narrow-minded vision of organizational preaching, one thing that sticks with them forever is Prabhupada’s focus on the individual free-will – that you are responsible to use your free-will properly and decide to either become a devotee or a demon. For example, here is one such article – http://vediccreationism.com/node/31. For someone who reads this link, he might come to believe that here is a scientific proof based on vedas that we do have freewill. Several people may go through the links that I have given here and all of them will follow different opinions based on what God has scripted for them.
Reason for this difference of opinion is simple and will eternally exist, at least from the viewpoint of the fatalist paradigm – because, that is how God intends to operate in this world. There are a certain set of people for whom God needs to imbibe the belief in free-will for their own good. “What is food for one is poison for another” – similarly, what is considered an indubitable fact for some (presence of free-will) is indubitably wrong for some others. As sentient and intelligent beings, we have a semblance of free-will which is mistaken to be free-will – the ability to respond/desire. It is a seemingly paradoxical state to relate with God while sustaining the belief in lack of free-will. An outward analysis will show that such a state is weird since all actions or effort lose all meaning and so, why don’t I just do nothing? However, for one who goes through that experience, it is what it is – just an apparent paradox but the only way to relate with God and also, even logically, the option to do nothing is not really an option within the premises of fatalism because one will be driven towards action by
paramatma. Just like, even though I don’t believe in freewill and from that I know that some people may not believe in it despite what I write, but it doesn’t mean that inaction is a choice for me – I know that I am driven to type this out all the while knowing that it is not my will causing this action of mine.
Jivas are born into avidya and it takes learning and experience for a jiva to be moulded so that he can operate from that premises. It is for good reason that people are made to believe in freewill or else, many would be left paralyzed.
Suffering plays a crucial role in that regard towards elevating our consciousness and sometimes leaves us with no option but to accept and realize certain things, especially in the initial stages when one may not be so much accustomed to direct revelations. To give an illustration, if you are playing a formidable opponent in chess, then you have potential to make mistakes if you have lot of choices to make. On the other hand, by a stroke of luck, you might be in a position where all possible movements become illegitimate and then you are forced to discover that one single move which is actually a checkmate to the opponent. Similarly, God sets up the life experiences for a jiva so that all those experiences lead us to the eventual goal of bhakti. When grandmasters play, if you don’t observe the full game, then you might think certain individual moves are foolish but then if you are patient, you will realize the value of such individual moves. For example, here is one such link for entertainment where Fischer simply sacrifices his queen for a planned attack – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbq_bPCzN8. Not even many chess grandmasters might play such a move to simply forego/sacrifice the queen (around 3:48 in the video) and might play it safe. Now, if we have watched that game of Fischer, then it doesn’t necessarily mean that all of us will be able to understand the purpose of every such queen sacrifice or any other seemingly bizarre moves made by every GM in every game. Similarly, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we as jivas will be able to start interpreting all the events or suffering in the world in terms of their big picture for that is only possible for God at all times, since he is the one who has scripted all of that in the first place. However, just like an ardent fan of chess will just wait to understand or trust that even such seemingly stupid moves from Fischer will lead to a win, a person who is self-realized will be able to operate on such a premises with his total trust in God. Certain events in life which we construed as a curse or punishment of God at a certain point in life and a certain stage of our spiritual evolution will unfold itself and present itself as the biggest blessing of God. We will come to understand that there is no reward or punishment in the true sense and that it was all part of our learning.
Ultimately, none of our decisions or beliefs are driven by a disembodied, so-called objective, rational analysis as much as we would like to believe that that’s how we operate. Especially, for those who have believed a contrary stance in the past and then moved on to a different one in future, it is not difficult to see for themselves that on both those occasions, they felt strongly that it is so logical and how could it be any other way? At least, there should be no disagreement among the believers in God that we will be led to believe what God wants us to believe. In that sense, the direct revelation or what the paramatma wants us to believe is what we will believe and the rest are all details – whether it is scientific proof, logical analysis, the interpretation of life experiences offered to us by God from within, etc.., – all those just serve to increase our faith till we get a direct perception of God and an ongoing relation. Belief in free-will or lack of it is no exception.
lil apasampradayi said:
I always wanted to ask this, and I now see that there is an occasion for it.
Vrajabhumi, you came up with some convincing points, and there is always shastric reasoning in it. But there is something that I feel very contradictory in this philosophical position.
If – as you claim and shastrically argue for – thought processes of every single living beings are directly controlled by Krishna at all time,
then why did Krishna spent his time inspiring shastras? Why are those detailed instructions for renunciation, sacrifices, accepting gurus, some more renunciation, the proper way of administering a society, food, sex (or the lack of it), yoga, and most importantly, the nature of Krishna, the living entity and the relation between the two? (and did i mention renunciation?) Why books and paramparas? Why doesn’t He just inspire each jiva to do (and think) just what it should according to its own nature and present condition, instead of having it read from a shastra or hear from a guru? All the other “rasa-priming” functions of this universe would remain intact if we’d suppose such a system where Krishna just carefully imprinting the individual soul with just that particular bit of transcendental knowledge it is in need of.
In fact, I can’t think of a more convincing argument for the existence of free will than the existence of scriptures, including those that claim that there is no free will. The revelations, commands, injunctions found in them show at a theoretical possibility that you could do and think otherwise (ie. that you are not remote controlled by Krishna to follow them), and that your own active participation is needed even in case when you are not forced by other beings to act and think “vedically”. Otherwise we could be directed to act “vedically” just like robots, and ther wouldn’t be any need for shastras.
Vrajabhumi said:
lil apasampradayi
I’ve written answers to all those questions posed by others, see these:
It’s Just A Spring Clean For The May Queen
Only Love Will Take you There
Devil Inside
Bare Necessities
Don’t You Forget About Me
Embryonic Journey
Cacofonix said:
Seeker,
Thanks for a wonderful write up. Just one small request: Add a lot of line breaks between your sentences. There is lot of good stuff there which just gets lost while reading.
“Devil Inside” is my favorite post on free will.
Happy New year 2012 Friends !!!
2011 is a wonderful year for me. I got a lot from this website.
Thanks a ton Vrajabhumi !!! Love you !!!
Krishna you are sooooooo Sweeeeeeeet…
Cacofonix
Raghu Mishra dasa said:
even if one
is
forgetful somehow
or
other as it
is
lost
on
one how the supreme cause is Krsna
one
will gradually understand
that
Krsna
is
the supreme cause by the sacrificial method
sacrifice
for the absolute yes yes as
from
the perspective of
consumate spiritual
consciousness the conrtibutor,
the contribution,the
consumption, the performer or
leader
of the performance and the
result or
ultimate
gain
everything
becomes one in the absolute
the Supreme Brahman that is
the methodology of Krsna
consciousness
Vrajabhumi said:
Raghu Mishra dasa
The second part of that is from a purport by Prabhupada to Gita 4.24, and it’s pretty right on the money, albeit a bit esoterically worded, but the first part you wrote is from somewhere else, maybe you made it up? Either way, the combining of the two (or 3?) quotes in the way you did made the Prabhupada purport you quoted lose it’s point, you make it seem as if it’s “sacrifice” which is the cause of understanding that “the supreme cause is Krishna,” that isn’t what Prabhupada was saying. He said when you are free from delusional consciousness, when you are in samadhi, trance—or seeing everything as one with Brahman or Krishna, then everything you do is yajna, sacrifice. It isn’t the “sacrifical method” which will lead you to remember that Krishna is the supreme cause, sacrifice can lead you to gaining that knowledge, but not to that vision or samadhi. Entering into the actual vision of sarvam khalv idam brahma, the samadhi, or trance state, that is done by paramatma showing you, or reminding you, of the constant presence and control over everyone and everything. That state isn’t achieved by your own power or by sacrifice. Here is the full quote from Prabhupada:
Raghu Mishra dasa said:
Of course Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not dependant on any other experience because Kṛṣṇa consciousness itself can purify one’s mind, but if there are impediments to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one may try to give up the result of his action. In that respect, social service, community service, national service, sacrifice for one’s country, etc., may be accepted so that some day one may come to the stage of pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord. In Bhagavad-gītā we find it is stated: yataḥ pravṛttir bhūtānām: If one decides to sacrifice for the supreme cause, even if he does not know that the supreme cause is Kṛṣṇa, he will come gradually to understand that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme cause by the sacrificial method.
From the purport of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is chapter 12 verse 11
That same purport to which I wish to draw one’s attention starts off saying:
It may be that one is unable to even sympathize with the activities of Kṛṣṇa consciousness because of social, familial or religious considerations or because of some other impediments. If one attaches himself directly to the activities of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there may be objection from family members, or so many other difficulties. For one who has such a problem, it is advised that he sacrifice the accumulated result of his activities to some good cause. Such procedures are described in the Vedic rules……..
Vrajabhumi,
in a way you make a distinction between the means and the end
result in your above reply and I respect your decision to do so however you
must know I am a bit of a simpleton focusing on whatever one plus one
is actually contributing to maintaining a sense of how it is
the method of Krsna consciousness in discussion
of course the method goes on regardless
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